Spiritual and Mental Abuse in Apostolic Christian Church Nazarene in Australia
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ACCN Forum | National North American brothers meeting ACCN Forum
National North American brothers meeting

Vista meeting
17 Apr 2019 7:18
Can anyone provide feedback on what happened? Particularly did anyone attend that can respond. Some brothers have said that they found these national brothers meetings boring, meaningless and a waste of time. Did anything positive come of it or are they just rearranging the chairs on the Titanic again. Do they have national brothers meetings in Australia and Europe?

17 Apr 2019 12:26
the topics discussed are virtually of little value to the Church if any, when the elders virtually never give feedback to the members of what was discussed or resolved or decided.

what is the reason for their meeting then?

meaningless in most cases....................

eating nice prepared food, nice drinks, nice back biting, removed elder pentsa would state it.

Agree with aussis
17 Apr 2019 14:33
Was PP or RP there. Both should be put out of any authority - looking where they can exploit a void and weakness of AUs and NA leadership . A pity the poor people of Australia didn't know their methods from 40 years ago. So much pain and anger from that. ACCN is falling apart while 'colors of the church walls' are being discussed. No vision and pathetically lacking of leadership. You know how to speak and have the right family and friends connections and bang you become a minister then later an elder. Too much is tolerated very little is questioned one in the leadership has the guts to stand up to much of anything. A good portion of these elders are no better than David Nicholson. Maybe it's time that we start naming names and the deeds they have done. So many are of real poor character.

6 May 2019 3:24
actually i believe those meetings take place to add more points to the WE BELIEVE booklet, in the past it had like what..10 main points (kinda like the nazarene ten commandments) and now it has how many? the purpose of the meetings is to always update their own law that they are not subject to, into a much stricter law with no sense to hurt their own membership, thanks a bunch nazarene elders!

Elders hand book
6 May 2019 8:40
The ACCN elders probably met to update their secret elders hand book.
Why do elders even have a guide book? Shouldn't they follow the bible instead.

6 May 2019 10:27
The ACCN elders need a handbook because the ACCN church never had a clear and sound doctrine, it was always "Listen to what the elder says". And he can say many things.

ACCN newsletter
6 May 2019 12:05
The ACCN newsletter boasts of all the wonderful charatie work that they do all over the world and money contrubtions that they donate to build new churches and rebuild churches.

The ACCN newsletter is incomplete and not truthful they should also add as to how many churches have been closed in recent years, how the elders love to harass members and kick menbers out of their churches and how they destroy famalies.

The ACCN elders should write a step by step book on how to discriminate and to get rid of member's that disobey the BOYS club.

Elders loophole.
6 May 2019 15:33
Elders can say many things, liked.

As elders would always say, Against an elder receive not an accusation, except before two or three witnesses.
So I see a problem here, when can you catch a elder in the wrong?
probably never, say an elder gets naughty can you catch him?
Probably no because the 2 witness rule, so we are left to believe the elders words as gospel truth, obviously we have to be carefull in accusing someone without evedience that's why we have Math 18:15-17.
You can clearly see how the ACCN church elders and many other church denominations and religions use this rule to cover for each other.
This rule is not a loophole or a scape goat excuse for an elder not to be accountable for the wrong doing or offence.

Elders Loophole.
9 May 2019 12:11
Deuteronomy 22:25-27
25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

I would like to say that my heart goes out to all the victims world wide that have suffered at the hands of wicked men especially from those wicked Bishops and priests in the church, and thank God that there is an awareness of the me too movement.

What "IF" an elder, pastor committed Verse 25 and forces a young damsel in the field, today this is considered sexual assault.
My question to you what would you do if you were the poor damsel or lad that cried and there was no one to hear your cries while you were sexually assaulted?

please tick the correct answer.

1, you confront the perpetrator and tell him his fault.
2, you bring 2 or 3 witnesses and confront the perpetrator.
3, you tell the church.
4, you call the police and file a lawsuit.
5, you don't call the police or file a lawsuit because its against biblical teaching.
6, you call the church committee and make a complaint.

Deuteronomy 19:15
15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

7, you keep your mouth shut for the rest of your life because you have no witnesses.

Obey and Submit
9 May 2019 13:27
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

We can be thankful that many of us have faithful Shepherds/Elders who love and care for God's sheep.

explain your meaning
9 May 2019 14:07
obey and submit

absolutely INCORRECT.

you shall know them by their fruits.

MOST Elders do NOT do what you are stating that they do.

Galatians 1:
6. I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel.
7. which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

does not contradict your bible verses on:
Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

NOW, lets see if you can explain how they do not contradict each other.

PLEASE EXPLAIN YOUR VERSION of the bibles teachings in both verses and how they agree and how they do not contract each other.

Go ahead...........

plainly explained
9 May 2019 14:30
Ezekiel 34:4

The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

1 Peter 5:2

Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

The Acts 20:
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Elders loophole.
9 May 2019 21:13
Just rember the ACCN elders have a reputation for covering for their own criminals, they don't even call the police to report abuse, embezzlement and I am pretty sure among other things.

Obey and Submit
9 May 2019 22:41
The word of God is clear: "they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

Judgment Day will be sad when our Elders/Fathers of Faith will give an account with grief and also that which is unprofitable of each of you! Obey and Submit while you have the breath of life.

May God have mercy on his us his erring sheep!

No way man
9 May 2019 23:30
Wow, what a scary statement. Submit, just like the man of God who disobeyed God's command and obeyed the lying prophet, that was destroyed by a lion, is the judgement you're taking about?

To: Obey and Submit
10 May 2019 0:20
I would be pretty embarrassed to come up with your statement, what planet did you come from? and was there a bible and Christians where you came from? You buddy have a serious problem in your psychological thinking, according to your statement you punish the victim and you support the criminals and sinners.

My advise to you before you publicly post any more statements, please go see a psychiatrist to help teach you recognize what is right and wrong and please read the Bible more so you can submit To God and not to man.

to which elders
10 May 2019 1:45
dear and beloved unconditionally elder worshipper:
"obey and submit"

read clearly in the bible:
indicate to which elders are you referring to?

Lets start with the bibles teachings, shall we?

1 Timothy 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

can you see the wording?

....the elders that rule "WELL"......, not to "ALL ELDERS"
...specifically or only to those that "labour in the word and doctrine".

it cannot get any clearer.

Children or Bastards
10 May 2019 5:57
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), “that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.” ... God expects each of us to obey our parents and give them honor.

10 May 2019 10:48
Why is that relevant? Church elders are not our parents.

10 May 2019 11:52
parents means:
a person who gives birth to or raises a child

elder means:
the male member that holds stressful care and feeding of God’s flock,
and conducting specific roles, but not being Lords over Gods heritage.

To difference
10 May 2019 12:59
Yes ! " The elders , -"CANNOT BE the lords, over GOD's heritage"-!!!!...

It is their deadly SIN....!

Unfortunately they do it because they
like it ~~~!

....Ruining other people's life , is equal to"murder" , according to bible .

There are a few exceptions anyway ...

10 May 2019 17:29
God choose his people , to whom he knew before,they were physically born .

" No one can go to the Father , unless the Father wants it ... "
That is the only key for the HAVEN...!!!!

So the brothers and sisters in the church are "God's HERITAGE" !... God selected and collected the members not the elders !!!!!

The elders were only the tools in the church to do the visual necessary part of the ceremony/ baptism/ ...
That means the church is created by God and it "IS NOT" the elders merit ! The elders have no right to discriminate or "stone" any members because they are God's inheritance and precious in God's eye, through the life .
"God even knows the number of their hair and counting on them ."

Elders or HAVEN ?
11 May 2019 12:42
We all remember to this prayer :

"Our FATHER who are in HAVEN be holy your name ...."

So, where is our Father ? Certainly not in the Church !!!! Also HE cannot be an elder or elders .... He is eternally in the HAVEN and omnipresent !!!!...

Our FATHER is in the "Haven" , where we belong , because we are as
Christians ,we are brothers and sisters of JESUS CHRIST .

Thanks to Jesus who redeemed us from the Earth and prepared the place for us in the " HAVEN ".

If someone is connecting himself or herself to the elders ,will end up where the "elders-graves" are and never goes to the HAVEN .
The life of these Christians will end up in under-the-ground only...

Because, God hates "IDOL-worshipers" !...

Worshiping or "lifting above the head" , any man , in any position is "idol - worshiping", that GOD hates !!!!!
It is an unforgivable SIN , prohibited by GOD and followed by GOD's punishment .
Elders have to be the humble SERVANTS of the Church only .

GOD will reward them according to that ...

"GOD's grace and mercy enough for them ...."

Please be aware of it !!!!!

who is head
11 May 2019 14:37
Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: ...........

Who is this?

Jesus or a Church Elder?

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

The Elder is head of his WIFE, not Jesus' Church.

Sitting on 2 chairs?
12 May 2019 21:52
To the moderator.
You mentioned to the ACCN Elders,
Are you not an ACCN member anymore? Or are you still attending the Baptist church?
Leave our ACCN members and Elders alone!
You are equally yoked with those you worship with.
I guess your group has no conferences, nor rules to abide by.

don't forget
12 May 2019 23:13
sitting on 2 chairs

i didnt know that you own the ACCN members and elders???

someone can be offended because of the ACCN Elders and corruption within the ACCN and or ACCN Elders.

that doesn't allow someone to go to a baptist church, but you seem to be the right person to fight for justice, by how you sound.

give us about, lets say, 4-5 examples where YOU fought for justice because someone ELSE in the Church was being treated unfairly.

i would like to hear what did you do and how did you act?

give as much detail as possible.

many thanks

we all need people like you to fight for justice and fight against the unrighteousness.

but don't forget dear soul what the bible teaches...........

Matthew 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Romans 14:13
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

To: Sitting on 2 CHS
13 May 2019 3:31
Why does the ACCN church have a committee? Do you know what a committee is? Do you know the role of a committee?
Don't you think if the church committee actally did something like investigate church abuse, Elders abuse and do something about the abuse, then things might be different, instead we have a committee that does nothing and PROTECTS their elder body boy's club and punishes their victims.

explanation why
13 May 2019 11:26
Ezekiel 34:1-6

The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Woe to you shepherds of Israel who only take care of yourselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? 3 You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. 4 You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. 6 My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.

Sitting on 2 chairs
13 May 2019 18:35
To the above statement..your question is why?why?
Because of the disobedient flock that doesn't want to obey the shepherd.they would rather go their own wandering ways, get lost, eaten by the wolves, than submit to the shepherd to lead them. It's impossible for the shepherd to lead the flock when they are disobedient!
That's why we are having this chaos! The do what feels good attitude. But at thee end each flock will give an answer to the most high God.

stop falsehood
13 May 2019 22:11
sitting on to chairs

Because of the disobedient flock that doesn't want to obey the shepherd.


2 Corinthians 10:5 is a biblical teaching

We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Can you see the wording....."obedient to Christ" not an elder.

Stop trying to change the bibles teachings.

the sheep do not leave the fold when the shepherd takes care of the sheep.

when the shepherd takes care of themselves, that is one reason why the sheep leave.

if the shepher strengthens the weak, the sheep will feel the care, and will not leave.

if the shepherd heals the sick, the sheep will feel care and will not leave.

if the shepherd rules harshly and brutally, the sheep leave.

the sheep will not leave if the shepherd helps, uplifts, provides support, clothes the needy, bonds the injured..etc,

John 10:
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Isaiah 42:8
"I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols.

13 May 2019 22:12
bowing yourself to an elder is idolatry.

To: Sitting on 2 CHS
13 May 2019 22:55
Sitting on 2 Chair's, please explain these verses.

Isaiah 9:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 Therefore the Lord will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.

15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.

16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.

U.S saying
14 May 2019 13:32
No justice, no peace

plain and simple
14 May 2019 16:40
its very plain, simple and clear.

Galatians 5:12
I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

The ancient and honourable can be referred to elders that trouble the Church with their filth, defiled lifestyle and justifying the wicked.
The prophets that teach lies, can also be referred to elders that teach falsehood.
(instead of repeating to the Church GOD's voice, they teach and enforce their own ways, principles, ways and instructions)

(the prophet in the old times were people from the children of israel that listened to God, and repeated to the people what God said.
these prophets that repeat their own words and enforce their will to the Church and its members, instead of Gods words, teach lies to the Church and its members.

Deuteronomy 18:20
But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

can we see the wording here "be put to death".

this was the punishment in the old times for these types of prophets, who speaks in God's name, but it wasn't FROM God.

GOD's Christians
15 May 2019 14:46
The "REAL" - Christian -brothers and sisters are redeemed by JESUS CHRIST and are the ones , who are called and selected by GOD .

They are GOD's havenly-property and inheritance.God knows their name and prepares the place for them in the HAVEN ....Their names cannot be eliminated , only by GOD's hands!!!!
God protects them to the end of the world...

Unfortunately there are some people whose got no 'white-gown ' and these are the opportunistic people only , building the worldly-systems , that is pure 'religion in focus'...

That's why some churches fail for ever and their stars are falling down from the sky , as the rain from the sky...

The only "Intercessor" between God and His people is JESUS himself , not the elders !!!!!Every members ought to be connected to JESUS not to the elders. We all got bible !!! That could be the healthy-living - church ...

No one has asked any elder or elders to carry all the members on their shoulder to the HAVEN as they imagine that .
It is impossible ,false and ridiculous...
We don't need this false religion at all !!!!

The elders and pastors are pastors only , servants and "helping hands" until they are humble-servants of GOD .

The Elders are "not -intercessors" , but "servants - only " in God's vineyard .

God will punish harshly the servants of HIS vineyard, who are false and full with grudge against to His real-people...
The people who are actually the son's and daughter's of HIM and their names are recorded indelibly by Angles, in the book of life for ever....
The names of the " little -ones" will be there "for ever .

Thankful for Elder
15 May 2019 22:41
Do you love and esteem your Elder? My Elder has given so much love to our congregation. He is not perfect by any means but which one of us are? Do we believe that God had his hand in ordaining our Elders? If we can't love here on Earth what will it be like in Heaven? Thankful for my Elder!

JESUS and Elders
16 May 2019 0:44
The Head of Church is " JESUS " !

The Elders, and Pastors will be rewarded at the judgement day .

dear elders
16 May 2019 0:50
to: so dearly thankful for your dearly beloved elder brother

thats fantastic news.

Do we believe that God had his hand in ordaining our Elders?

not always.

Satan is transforming himself into an angel of light, thats why.

Not everyone that says LORD LORD, will enter into Gods Kingdom, thats why.

God allowed Saul to be king, but did God want Saul to be king?
Was it Gods desire for Saul to be king? Ofcourse NOT!!

if God allows things, it doesnt always means it was His will for it to happen.

as soon as Saul failed to obey the voice of the Lord, Saul was removed from being king, and God ended up choosing David.

God does this today as well, but through VERY SMALL number of Churches and Elders. (because most have taken the steps of Saul)

1 Samuel 31:4
Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.

MOST Elders do the same, but have chosen not to bear the punishment for their sin now.

If they would accept the punishment with measure, they will be free from their sin and ready for the last day.

If they choose not to accept the punishment with measure NOW, they will accept it on the last day.
(only thing is, it wont work for their good then)
(it will make a difference then if they accept it NOW)

Matthew 21:44
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

To: TKU for Elder.
16 May 2019 3:04
What relation is your elder to you?

16 May 2019 12:56
as a servant not as a Lord.

16 May 2019 15:48

Ephsians 5: 23

...-"Christ is the head of the Church " !!!!!!!!

Why is it hard to understand that , the elders cannot be above the
Church that belongs to Jesus , WHO is actually the only LORD in the Universe and the SON of GOD.. ????!!!!!

Elders have to be SUBMITTED to the church and the members of the Church, to serve them humbly...! They are not Lords in any circumtenses.

They are not on their own ...

They only can "convey" what the Church want .

16 May 2019 15:56
why do people from the USA find this hard to understand or accept?

ACCA Hiarchy
17 May 2019 0:32
Any thoughts on the ACCA hierarchy? (1) God/Bible (2)Elder Body/Committee (3) Church Members

Fewer conflicts but individual members have no voice...

Not so
17 May 2019 9:00
To the person who wrote Elders submit:
Where do you find it on the Bible that Elders are to submit to the members of the church other than Ephesians 5 verse 21..submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God?
Thee Elders are a part of the church also, the church could not function without the Elders.
They have been ordained to have (oversite) and feed and warn the flock.
In Hebrews 13 the writer writes to the (members) to submit, obey, remember, solute' to whom?
To those who have the rule over you.Verses 7,17,24.
Why? For they watch for your souls, as they must give account.
To whom? Do they give account? Is it not to the Lord on the last day?
In Ezekiel 33 the Lord speaks about the watchman, his duty is to blow the trumpet if he sees the danger, if the watchman does not warn, than they will perish, but their blood will be required of the watchman!
But if he blows the trumpet, and those that do not heed the warning and do not repent of their wickedness, they will die in their iniquity!
The watchman has saved his own soul.
How sad that today versus 31,33 are being fulfilled!
(People hear the word but will not do them).
Why? (For with their mouth they show much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.!)
If the elders would listen to all the members, they would be followers not leaders! They are there to lead the flock not follow!
Let us be thankful for those Elders who do all those things humbly and in love and fear of God.

dont be decieved
17 May 2019 16:19
dont be deceived by the devils teachings of the bible

not so

If the elders would listen to all the members, they would be followers not leaders! They are there to lead the flock not follow!

Your comment is from the devil, not from God nor His Biblical teaching.

Luke 10: 16 is not from the devil but from Jesus Christ

He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Here, it refers to servants listerning to the Church and its members, not to govern or act as Lords or as leaders.

Your comment is from the devil, I repeat again, but
Luke 22:25 & 26 are from Jesus Christ

Luke 22:25
And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.


But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

Christ's Church follows Christs teachings.
Christs members follow Christ teachings.
Christ is Head of the Church.
Christ is Head of the members of the Church.

Everything else is from the devil.

Dont deceive others and stop deceiving yourself.

2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

USA or not
17 May 2019 17:21
the bible doesnt have to state: "elders obey the church" for it to mean that.....

surely you can understand that, yeah?

the number of mentioned verses above, and in the last few comments indicate very plainly, dear soul, wherever in the USA you are from, even though you are hiding your computer ID, not indicating which country you are from, you are most probably from the USA....but even if you are not from the USA, it still stands that the bible verses refer VERY plainly that elders need serve the church and its members, not govern, lead, exercise authority.

That is Christs' job as head of his members.

The male (if married) is head of his wife, not the Church nor Christs' members.

If you are a servant, you cannot act as a lord.

Remember, if an elder has a responsibility to baptise, ordain ministers...etc, does not give them authority to be lords.
This responsibility is to SERVE.
If they have a role that other male members do not have, it doesn't mean they have to act as lords.

thats why the bible states very plainly:

1 Peter 5
1. The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3. Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

read for yourself.....
- "feed the flock" does not mean lead, decide, govern, rule, exercise authority.........

- "oversight" means being watchful and having responsible care, not leading, governing, ruling, exercising authority

- "neither as being lords" much clearer can it get.

what does neither as lord mean?

does that mean they can tell people what to do? NO!!

a lord tells his servant what to do (which is Christ to the members, not elders to Christs' church)

its not hard to understand, if we bow down to Jesus and not elders.

elders will give an account to God for peoples souls, not because they are co-owners of members' souls, or co-owners of Christs' Church or its members, BUT:
- when elders offend members and members leave the church, God will ask the elder for those souls
- when elders DONT bring justice to the members (in Gods princlies), God will ask the elder for doing injustice to these souls
- when the elders justify the wicked, God will ask the elder for those souls that continued living in their sins.
- when the elders needed to warn the members that the enemy is attacking, but they didn't warn the members, and the enemy won the member to fall into sin, God will ask the elder for this action

To Not so
17 May 2019 19:15

JESUS, our intercessor , who promised to be with us to the
"End of the world" ...

Also He is the ONLY ONE "HEAD of the Church "! -Hallelujah- !!!!

HE knows us ,He call us by on our names ... The names that are written in the " Book of life "...


Our "intercessors" are not the leaders , elders and bosses but JESUS Himself....

The elders don't have to carry us into the haven on their shoulders.
No one requested it ...!!!!!

Can be deceitful if the carrying person is already heading and running to the "opposite " direction ...~~~!

Lets see the Judgement-Day When Jesus , the "King of Haven" will introduce us personally "one by one" :

Please read Matthew 25 : 31 - 46 .

It is too long to write it down , please pick up your bible .

Does not take too long to read it through .

elder of Jesus
17 May 2019 22:37
no elder died for his own sin, let alone the sin of his wife, daughter, son, uncle, untie, granddaughter, grandson, grandfather, grandmother, friend, neighbour......


for ANY sin committed by any member of ANY Church


for anyone else's sin not listed above.

BUT, Jesus died for every elders' sin, and for everyone else's sin listed above, and for everyone else's sin not listed.

who do we obey unconditionally?
who do we follow unconditionally?

some elder or Jesus?

cannot contradict
17 May 2019 23:07

The following 2 Bible passages do NOT contradict each other in the teachings of Gods ways and principles.
(nor does any other 2 bible verses)

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.


Deuteronomy 18:
18. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20. But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22. When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Its important to understand and to realise what is more important, and who gets priority in obedience here.
Whoever speaks truth, whoever speaks Gods ways, whoever speaks Gods principles, whoever speaks Gods commandments, whoever voices Gods voice to anyone, anywhere, all should be following that, obeying that, going along with that.
This includes any and every elder likewise.

If any elder speaks Gods voice, Gods ways, Gods principles, Gods commandments, of course we should obey that.
There is always a condition.
That is "IF" the elder speaks Gods voice, Gods ways...etc

Regarding "Obey them that have the rule over you..." does not mean that whatever the elder says, the members need to obey.
Because there are other verses that talk about this same topic, that needs to be considered, that we all follow this rule, in the way it does not contradict any OTHER verse.
if we look into this topic and bring it in align with:
" I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

its clear, that if the elder is repeating the words what God has put in his mouth, and shall speak to the people ALL that God shall command him, well, sure, ofcourse, we need to obey that.
(not because its from the elder, but because its origin is from God)

But, lets go to the next step. So, now we need to view the other side of the topic, what if the elder does NOT speak to the people ALL what God shall command.

here we go, it continues with:
"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die."

This verse does NOT indicate a teaching of unconditional obedience to elders, its conditional, because elders CAN and DO speak words using Gods name, BUT its not what God commanded or taught.

Here is the other side of the point, that indicates when we are NOT allowed to obey the elders.

Surely, its not that hard to understand....come on!!

In the old times, these were stoned to death for this trespass.

Would any elder like to die for this cause, if they were found in this trespass?
Would they continue to repeat Hebrews 13:17
1 Timothy 5:19
Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

Fine, 1 Timothy 5:19 is true, and needs to be obeyed by all members.
Deuteronomy 18: 18 needs to be followed by all elders too.

The unconditional obedience by every member towards God and every elder towards God is whats important for all.

Not so
18 May 2019 12:13
How can you write that the scripture quoted which teaches the church to be submissive and obey the one that have the rule over them, is from the Devil?
The Devil himself did not want to be submissive to Gids way, so he rebelled, are you advocating rebellion?
This tread is not about Elders being above Christ, the Lord is the head of the body, but he has also called servants in his church. some were apostles,(Elders) bishops, pastors, etc.
Whom Jesus said if they have kept my sayings, they will keep your too!
In John 15/20 does it mean that those to whom he was talking to (apostles) were to have their own sayings to the people? Of course not! But we read also that when there arose problems in the church, yes problems.
When a certain part of the "church" wanted to add to the gospel salvation by works "circumcision", who decided what to be done? Was it the church? Or as it says in Acts 15/6 " the Apostles and Elders came together to find a solution. Acts 15/6 for it seemed good to the holy ghost, and to us not to lay upon you greater burden than these necessary things; Verse28.
So we see, it is not a question who is head, and it was not the whole church that "came together to consider the matter".
The holy ghost working among the assembled Apostles and the Elders gave guidance how to deal with this problem!
No different today, problems are dealt with by the Elders who are led by the holy spirit, Do not call it from the Devil!

read on
18 May 2019 17:17
read the whole chapter

to: not so

Or as it says in Acts 15/6 " the Apostles and Elders came together to find a solution.

read the whole chapter of Acts 15

verse 22 states:
Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church,

CAN YOU SEE "WHOLE CHURCH"..................

the elders did not decide on their own NOR did they have a meeting on their own.
it was WITH the church as members...

meaning, the elders worked with the members, NOT alone without the members. This is called "elders acting as servants to the church" NOT "lords".

this is the teachings from Jesus.

understand concept
18 May 2019 18:18
the devil wants the wife to be head of the man.
the devil wants the elders (or anyone ELSE) to be head of the church
the devil wants jesus to be head of the father (of anyone else)
this is the devils teachings.
Jesus being head of the Church cannot mean elders can be obeyed, because Jesus needs to be obeyed.
your previous comment was:
"Where do you find it on the Bible that Elders are to submit to the members of the church "
read verses:
1 Peter 5
1. The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3. Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
read verses:
Luke 10: 16
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
He that hears the Church and its members, listens to God through the Church, meaning the elders cannot govern or rule the members, but need to serve the members, acting as servants towards the Church and its members.
Luke 22:25,26
And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
what does "ye shall not be so",? does that mean elders can exercise lordship over the Church?
These verses dont state "elders submit to the members", but it means that.
Elders are servants not lords.
If elders are servants and not lords, then obedience does not belong to them, but to God.
Servants are obedient to their lord.
members need to show full obedience to God.

submit to who
18 May 2019 20:00
1 Pet.5:3
Neither as being lords over God's heritage,

What part of this do you not understand that elders are to be servants? (not lords)

IF they are lords, then members need to submit themselves to the elders. But they are not lords.

They are SERVANTS, meaning they are not lords.
If they are not lords, then they need to submit to the church.

this is the teaching of Jesus.

Everything else is from the devil.

stop it
18 May 2019 23:18
enough is enough with all this "elder obedience theory"....

we need to put our foot down and stop it....

enough is enough!!!

everyone needs to realize what the bible is teaching clearly, plainly and openly. Stop all this deceit!!

elders need to realize what the bible is teaching clearly, plainly and openly. Stop all the deceit!!

why would any elder seek or expect obedience from anyone?

2 Corinthians 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Can it be any clearer.........obedience to Christ.

What part does anyone not understand here?

clarification is required together with this verse and aligned with:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you.......

They cannot contradict each other.

So, understand that both need to be taken and followed in the way where the other is likewise fulfilled.

the bible is not contradicting with having 'obedience to Christ' and 'obey those that have rule over you' without explanation.

what are we going to say about:

Acts 5:29
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

the apostles didnt seek or expect obedience, why should elders today seek or expect it?

The old ways
19 May 2019 16:21
Then spake Jesus to the multitude,and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore what so ever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works:for they say,and do not.

''And his inward affection is more abundant toward you,whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.''

''Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but how much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.''

How far has the churches gone away from these teachings?

perfectly true
19 May 2019 23:03
exactly correct "the old ways".
very true
the devil finds justified ways, even attempted biblically, to get our obedience away from Jesus, anyway possible.
the bibles teachings cannot change.
it doesn't disintegrate through time.
its doesnt modernise through time.

Mother and Brethren
20 May 2019 3:15
Matthew 12:46-50 King James Version (KJV)
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Notice verse 49, Jesus never said, hey disciples or ELDERS, your mother or your brethren! No,Jesus said who follow me and do God's will the same is MY mother and brethren.

very true
20 May 2019 10:42
it cant be any simpler.

again, referring to the members and the CHURCH as emphasis, not towards the elders.

20 May 2019 13:47

GOD / The EVERLASTING GOD/ does not tolerate to the "Idols" , nor to the "idol worshipers" either !!!

The punishment will be harsh ....

Why is it too hard to understand ?

Read through the Deuteronomy chapter 5 please ...

Mother church
20 May 2019 14:50
Is the church a spiritual mother or a social group, is a small church gathering better then a big church gathering, which one is good?

What does a spiritual mother "church" do? How does a spiritual mother "church" raise and teach her young?

How should a spiritual mother "church" raise her kids?

You know, growing up in a small church from my youth i have seen many things, strict and discipline followers the Nazarene way but not truly unified, I rember how certain famalies were tight knit together but now are enemies, I also rember growing up in my teenage years in another slightly bigger church where most of the members we all related and I remember the emotional abuse from certian church members for being different, I have also spent a few years attending a bigger church and I see that there are groups, the popular and not so popular, the rich and not so rich, the charamatic and not so out going,the kind and the mean, the few lovable and the many scoffers you see a divide, please don't get me wrong there are many wonderful people who attend church but think of the negative impact a divided church can have on a child growing up, confusion and resentment.
So what voice does a divided church have? Which group do you listen to or follow? How do you fit in a groupie church environment?
The strict group tells you one thing and the Liberal group tells you other things, if these 2 personalities are together how can they rule together how can they decide what is right and wrong what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. I only felt social anxiety.
You might say a elder has a hard job, maybe that's why most of them are narcissist and bulldoze the members down with their arragounce.

I remember as a child over hearing my parents conversation that a church elder wanted to punish "church discipline" a elderly sister because of her unbeliever husband who was related to the elder, the unbeliever husband slandered his wife so the elder told the church that so and so sister is under discipline, luckily there was a few members that stood up against the elders decision of punishing the poor sister.
So how does a normal church function? I would really appreciate of hearing other's experiences and opinions.

Thank you.

very wrong way
20 May 2019 19:17
so the elder told the church that so and so sister is under discipline.

this is totally WRONG way of conducting work as discipline.
this is EXACTLY what the elders do WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this is an act of being a lord, rather then a servant.
this is an act as a lord, that can come to church, stand up, and say he or she is from today under punishment, where the church did not hear the confession of the sin, and does not know what sin is in question here.....
without confessing their sin, the church nor the elder cannot bring a level of punishment.
the person in sin needs to confess their sin, before the church can prepare the work for discipline.
when the church prepares the work, the elder/s are called, and with the confessed sin/s, the church with the elder brings the measure of punishment due.
James 5:14
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church;............
(it doesnt say, if someone is spiritually sick, the elder will tell the church that and that member is under discipline)
James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.......
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we do not confess the sin, we cannot be forgiven. The dicipline means nothing if we did not confess the sin.

Mother church
27 May 2019 2:07
Luke 6:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?

10 And looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

11 And they were filled with madness; and communed one with another what they might do to Jesus.

I also grew up with many self righteous christians and attentened many churches that are filled with self righteous christians, they are always right, they know everything and they boast that they have read the whole bible 5 times, they live their christian lives like the practicing pharasiees.

The bible is full full of commandments, parables and lessons for us to learn and follow on a daily bases, how can it be that the bible is plain and simple and yet there is always 2, 3, 4 and 5 opinions and interpretations? Why is there discord among believers? Why is there divisions among believers? Why is there hatred among believers?

Notice verse 11, certain pharisees were filled with madness and communed one with another what to do to Jesus. We have many christians like this "the pharasiees" who LOVE to strive and cause divisions and are never at peace with themselves and anybody else.
How can you deal with such a church member/s how should you deal with such situations? I believe to deal with the pharasiees is the hardest thing and are impossible to deal with!
Should the church elder be a mediator for such a situation? Should church members be a mediator be responsible for church problems to solve? Or should christian pharasiees be the mediators to church problems?
Example of church problems, a ministers son or daughter commits an fornication act he or she is not put under church punishment they are free members, thy lead songs, the offer prayers and so forth, but some
other church member they commit a small offense they are immediately targeted and put under church discipline, how do you deal with this unjust situation?

unjust situation
27 May 2019 23:08
re comment:
how do you deal with this unjust situation?

here is one way to handle it....

step 1:

MAtthew 18:15
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

and if the member, minister or elder is in question....its the same procedure.
if the minister or elder does NOT repent and confess their sin, then...

step 2:

Titus 3:10 comes into what needs to be practised...

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

because the bibles states:
Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

the bible explains why do ministers and elders choose not to repent and confess their sins.

Ecclesiastes 8:11
Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

the church and the members can put the ministers and elders on hold from doing spiritual work or conducting sermons or prayers, until neutral elders come and question the acts of those ministers and elders.


because of 1 Corinthians 3:17

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

the ministers and elders defile the church with their respect of persons.

28 May 2019 9:02
"the church and the members can put the ministers and elders on hold from doing spiritual work or conducting sermons or prayers, until neutral elders come and question the acts of those ministers and elders."

I don't disagree with your suggested approach. But in practical terms, how do you accomplish this? How does the church and its members 'put the ministers and elders on hold'?

Some churches have what is called a 'board of elders' or something similar, and it's their responsibility to hire/fire the pastor. And not just hiring/firing, they are there to counsel with and help the pastor address issues and problems in the church. But this typically has not been how the Froelich churches have been set up -- indeed, many times this other model is 'scorned' as being one of men having itching ears (ie, fire the pastor if he doesn't say what we want him to say). Instead, the Froelich church model seems to be one of having authority vested in the local elder and minister group, and then more broadly in the denomination as a whole. And that's the reason for my question -- if the very group that has authority is the problem, how, in practical terms, is the church and members able to put them on hold?

put on hold
28 May 2019 14:26
the church has the ultimate authority over its members, not the elder, elders, elder body, elder committee...etc

re. Matthew 18:15-17
neither step states "tell the elder", the "elder body", the "elder committee"...etc
what does it say..."tell the church".

why the church?
who is the church?
what is the church?
whom is it referring to as 'the church'?

its very clear, but, many elders have changed this teaching, and have over-rode it to bringing in the false teaching of "tell the elders", they will deal with it.

this is not a biblical teaching.

if Christ is head of the body, as a church, then the members together are above every elder and every elderbody, elder committee...etc

the church, and its members, by continuing to sit and be present while an elder conducts a sermon, a prayer or any spiritual work of the church, are partakers of the elders sin.

the church, and its members, but standing up, and leaving the congregation if the elder conducts the sermon, a prayer of any spiritual work, shows the church does not support the elder and their sin.

the elders could not do anything if the members are not present.

the elders need to work with the church...but how....if the members are not present?

walking out, is one very bold way of not giving in, not supporting the elder in sin.

we all need each other, BUT, it needs to be known who is head.

the elders are not the head.
they are part of the body.

the bible teaches:

Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

2 Thess.3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

2 Corinth.6:14
.......... for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

are we sleeping
29 May 2019 0:00
the church and its members need to be spiritually healthy to be able to act in this way.

the members need to obey the small still voice of the Holy Spirit to be able to act and make this kind of step.

if many are sleeping, and scared that the elders' discipline might come, this stops them from making the wise move.

if the majority are awake, and are scared of what Gods discipline will come for disobedience, this makes them make the wise move.

1 Corinthians 11:30
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

2 Jun 2019 9:50
What is future for the Church?

Godly fear
2 Jun 2019 13:54
future of the church remains with the members of the church, if they choose to follow the bibles teachings and above mentioned verses.

do the members of the church having Godly fear towards disobedience of the above verses towards God?
do the members of the church have fear what elders can punish?

this is the key question.

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