Spiritual and Mental Abuse in Apostolic Christian Church Nazarene in Australia
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ACCN Forum | New major ACCN split coming? End of ACCN? ACCN Forum
New major ACCN split coming? End of ACCN?

ACC concerned
13 Feb 2019 0:49
Apparently there are talks among some of the North American Leadership that there are churches looking to separate themselves from churches who have allowed or are ok with allowing full membership to individuals who were not baptized by ACC Nazarene hands. So far mostly due to marriage. This movement is partially to appease the European Elders who have warned ACCN North America that they will cease to recognize those churches allowing or supporting this practice. Churches looking to separate include Kitchener Avon Road, San Diego Vista, West Akron... can only assume similar minded churches like Windsor, Harrow, Richmond Hill, Cleveland, Queens, Hollywood, Colorado Springs, Lawndale, Carson City, Coarsegold could decide to follow.

This will splinter families and friendships. Whom will their children marry?

changes to the faith
13 Feb 2019 1:12
Doug Savin accepted a member who was not baptized in the ACCN. This lady attended a church in the USA before moving to Canada.
The unsettling thing about this was the elder of the USA church ask members during a meeting if they were all free for her to attend Doug Savin's church as a free member.
It's concerning because WHEN were the elders going to tell or ask the members if they agreed with changes to the faith?

AC Faith
13 Feb 2019 2:40
The AC Faith Church split from the National AC Church (sister church) with the blessings of the European Nazarene Elders. This split was due to the National AC Church no longer recognizing sins unto death.

The AC Faith Church has greatly prospered in number mostly drawing from the National Church, non the less preserving the AC Faith as we know it.

Marriages and baptisms continue wherever the true Faith exist!

13 Feb 2019 2:56
Not true! Only Serbia does not recognize the National Sister church body. Everywhere else both sides are recognized, ESPECIALLY in Ukraine.

Money Unites!
13 Feb 2019 4:14
Whichever church is collecting funds from the sister church whether it be Ukraine, Serbia, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Germany, Austria, etc., means they are united with the sister church because money makes them one.

13 Feb 2019 8:27
Not baptised in the nazarene church = garbage destined to hell.

Come on, you Voivodina peasants!

ACC concerned
13 Feb 2019 9:10
I think the last comment was said sarcastically. Please be respectful and sincere and avoid the use of sarcasm. There is potentially much at stake here and could spell the end of the denomination as we now know it. I agree that there are some serious problems among the leadership including many that are more politically motivated then spiritually motivated. Some are absolutely unsuited for their positions. But the scope and size of a split like this would really hurt our social structure.

13 Feb 2019 9:15
No it wasn't sarcasm. I really mean it.

Voivodina peasants = Voivodjanska seljadija

God's only chosen people on Earth.

To: Perplexed
13 Feb 2019 9:49
You might be baffled entirely or very puzzled. But I'm confused about your comment, 'Not baptised in the nazarene church = garbage destined to hell.' Who said that?

The issue here is freedom of choice. You cannot ask your members to make a promise and then years later tell them that the promise they made is null and void. Transparency is key.

As for this lady, no one said she is going to hell. In addition to that, she is probably better than a lot of the ACCN Christians. The issue here is you cannot ask someone to break a promise they made without giving them a choice.

As for you, if you got baptized in the ACCN and now you changed your perspective, then that is on you. But don't judge other people and their faith and the promises they made. Let's be adults!

13 Feb 2019 10:02
So, what's new? Splitting churches again? How boring.

To: Perplexed
13 Feb 2019 11:10
Someone asked Jesus; Luke 13:23
"Lord are there few who are saved?" And he said to them,strive to enter through the narrow gate, Matth.7:13-14 for wide is the gate and broad is the way which leads to destruction,and there are many who go in by it

Because narrow is the gate and difficultis the way which leads to life,and there are few who find it.

Not surprised
13 Feb 2019 15:41
Is this the same Doug Savin who years ago disciplined a member in his church for marrying a brother from the western conference?
And then, later on, he himself walked his own daughter down the aisle to marry a divorcee who has never been baptized to my knowledge in any church,
Yet his daughter was previously a member of Toronto church, how things change or is it just Doug'
savin change?
Does he expect the rest of us to change to his unstable doctrinal ways? God forbid!

nothing new
13 Feb 2019 19:51
is this that doug savin that accepted his mother (who committed a sin unto death) with george bodjanac?

nothing new.

he has changed the sin unto death teaching once again.

Faith in God
13 Feb 2019 21:19
The ACCN religion was formed by Samuel Frohlich the "Reformist- Priest"in Switzerland some 200 years ago...

So ,that the ACCN religion is a "branch" of the mainstream "Reformist" religion ONLY !!!! ,- Nothing else !!!!

Basically it is a Christian "Religious SECT" or organization like others...Nothing else . Unfortunately ...

They do not own the haven as they think !....

Jesus didn't come to establish and organize an ACCN with 20-30 thousand people worldwide , when the population is more than 7 billion today !!! You underestimate GOD !!!!!!
God had bigger plan than that ! "God so loves the world" ....!

Jesus the son of God , came to redeem the World , sacrificed His life for ALL .

The ACCN has nothing to do , with "Apostolic -Followers"in Jesus's time or Nazarenes from Nazareth etc. The title was given to them later and is a little bit false .
Obviously they have their own particularity ...

The religious ethics , agendas , doctrines were formed 200 years ago, chauvinistically protect the like-minded people... It was a mechanism to protect their own circle. They created their own rules and regulations ...It is understandable , but 200 years after "out of date", and many things are questionable .

The " faith in God" is not the same with the "religious customs, rules and regulations" or "ethics "...

That,s why in Luke 23:23 ,Jesus did not answered straight to the question . But then , He said what He found "more relevant" ,that should be followed ....Please read Luke 23 ;23 again and think!

/ Answer to " To:perplexed "/
Please read it more carefully and you will find it, why Jesus did not answered as they expected it ? Jesus knew what was behind their thoughts ...

Otherwise you have found the best chapter that describes the situation today. "Good on you mate... !"

According to the bible it is not the ACCN elder's duty to count who will enter or how many will enter , into the HAVEN !!!! Take care !

not by man
13 Feb 2019 21:59
the nazarene faith was not formed by a man.

the nazarene faith was not formed by a women.

the nazarene faith was not formed by a man in switzerland

the nazarene faith was not formed by a women in any other country.

To: Faith in God
13 Feb 2019 22:29
"Jesus did not answered straight to the question"
You got verses mixed up; It's writen in Luke 13;23, not 23;23.

And also Matthew 7;13-14.

Luke 13; 23
13 Feb 2019 23:43
Yes it was just a misprint of the number , but the content was Luk 13;23 ... Thanks

Uniting Sisters
14 Feb 2019 1:31
Recently the Christian Apostolic Elders from Illinois met with the DS Church here on Route 94 in Akron. How about uniting AC "sisters" to make a viable Church. Nazarene, DS, Faith, Christian Apostolic these could all be one? Any thoughts...

Oh come on
14 Feb 2019 1:37
18580 views know what he meant. The Nazarene faith was not formed by man. But the CHURCH was.

Argentina we are one
14 Feb 2019 4:33

making fun
14 Feb 2019 5:24
It easy to sit back and make fun of peoples struggles from the comfort of your home.

Argentina we are one
14 Feb 2019 6:35
to: making fun. I do think we have a problem and I am not making fun out of that. It is very sad indeed.

14 Feb 2019 7:25
Reading this thread puts a melancholy feeling in my heart. Is a church split really what many would like to do? I’ve personally been through one church split (not by choice – others wished to depart) and I’ve lived around split churches and families my entire life. All it has brought is sorrow upon sorrow, and a terrible witness for Christ in the community. The community/world understands nothing of ‘Apostolic Christian nuance.’ All they see are people who preach love, yet cannot get along. Where I live, there are four branches of the Frohlich churches, all nearly a stone’s throw from one another, and a fifth in a distant city. Families disrupted and divided, children filled with anxiety as friends or relatives are taken from them, friendships destroyed and cast away, brethren at odds with backbiting and gossip instead of loving one another, the Christian peace of the pure brutalized, a community that needs Christ but sees a bunch of so-called Christians incapable of getting along (who they refer to as hypocrites), young people escaping the church in droves wanting no part of so-called Christendom… and the Lord Jesus Christ and His mission and work, left out in the cold. The damage is frightful! Gentlemen – is this really what you want? And who is going to answer for it? Who wants to be like the one who perpetrated the first split in Heaven, satan himself? I’m not trying to say one sin is preferable over another, but I think I’d rather face the Lord one day as an adulterer… than to face Him as one who has split the church and divided His people.

ACC concerned
14 Feb 2019 10:05
I started this thread to bring awareness to what I know for sure is being discussed behind the scenes by some leadership and some of their supporting cast. This is not just another simple small church split but a fracturing of our denomination in North America as we know it. I made a mistake in calling the Clovis church Coarsegold which is what it used to be called. We seem to have a problem that nobody wants to talk about - Biblical illiteracy, among members and leaders alike. Not a problem unique to our denomination, it has been written about that this is a problem affecting Christianity worldwide. We don't have the time or the inclination to read the Bible much less become disciples of The Word. We call on our big verse, big sermon, and local church doctrine for understanding and guidance. This is the stale bread that we eat and rely on to get us through our daily questions and dilemmas - even the big questions. Turns us into beings that are more church minded then Kingdom minded. Where the church doctrine and culture gives us the multiple shades of grey. Am i one of those people who just doesn't get it anymore? That stale bread is hardly a nourishment if I want my identity to be the identity of Jesus Christ and almost nothing else. If I lost my personal identity on the day that I put on that of Christ. All of God's people who are reading through this thread could bring forth a lot of scriptural references but it's a lot less precious when it's just handed to us like on a plate. If I'm wrong about this I stand corrected - again. I eagerly await your comments, questions and mostly your correction if I don't get it.

To: Faith in God
14 Feb 2019 10:47
How would you interpret Luke 13;verse 24? Where it says,
Strive to enter through the narrow gate,for many I say to you,will seek to enter and will not be able.

This verse align with verses from Matthew 7;13-14.which u didn't mention

What is the narrow gate,and what is the wide gate?

14 Feb 2019 10:48
Recently the Christian Apostolic Elders from Illinois met with the DS Church here on Route 94 in Akron. How about uniting AC "sisters" to make a viable Church. Nazarene, DS, Faith, Christian Apostolic these could all be one? Any thoughts...

when was the meeting held?

with the elders?

at route 94 church?

find faith on earth
14 Feb 2019 14:27
the nazarene church was not formed by man.

i am not talking about what most nazarenes have changed from the original nazarene practices, i am talking about the origin.

the changes have be made by many churches, elders and individuals.

this does not change the original church teaching nor the faith.

peoples faith has changed. this is the problem.

Faith is a Holy Gift
16 Feb 2019 15:16
My understanding is that Almighty God is the giver of faith.
I have encountered many ACCC Christians who say that they CHOSE to have faith in God. But God gives and he even takes away if HE so chooses- remember that HE is God.

Ephesians: Chapter 2 verses 8-9- For it is by GRACE you have been saved through faith-and THIS IS NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT OF GOD -not by works, so that no one can boast.

The meaning of "Nazarene" is someone who was born or lives in Nazareth. Jesus was a Nazarene on earth because He is from the town of Nazareth. All faith comes from the purity of the Almighty in heaven not Nazareth. So this label of "Nazarene" may distract people from God Himself and can become "works" careful.
True faith in God is Clearly a holy gift from God and It is how this faith is personally and collectively utilized that God watches and determines if we grow or not.
Some People in these churches are too proud and busy fighting for decades and forget that God is alive and is watching.

Google this name
16 Feb 2019 22:14
Please , print this name into your "google" searcher and you will be surprised, what is the story of origin to your ACCN /NAZARENE/ religion.

Samuel Heinrich Froehlich

origin please
17 Feb 2019 0:42
the origin of the nazarene church is not in or through ACCN or ACCA.


Samuel H. Froelich

17 Feb 2019 2:19
If the origin of the ACCN or any ACC is Samuel H. Froelich, we should seriously reconsider our faith

17 Feb 2019 10:19
Samuel H Froelich was Swiss protestant separated him self from catholicisam, preaching the gospel through Germany,Austria and Hungary.

Then one of the Hungarian decidet to be called Nazarene and that's how is spread to former Yugoslavia.

The rest was called Evangelical baptist. It's written in a book calld MARCHING TO ZION from sister church.

No Pharisees please
17 Feb 2019 11:42
Froelich was a "pioneer", to renew the faith in God , that broken away in nearly two sanctuaries .
He wanted to renew the beliefs in GOD ,in the religion that become unbearable and cynical to the mankind . Froehlic wanted to steer the false religion back to the " Holy-Scripture -Only "!!!!/ "Sola- cripture" / .
Frohlich had been persecuted for it and suffered a lot with his family.

Frohlich did what he could , but why is this small religion "encored down ", where it is started 200 years ago ??? !!! ...
It is time to think about that ...

The FAITH is the " Belief in God Only" !!!!!Cannot be other !!!!!!!!

The "other faiths" are in religion or religious authorities/in Elders or Senior- members alike false !!!
Also the religious -customs and idols are the same./They are worthless ,rotten and smelly...!

God does not want "Idol- Worshippers" !!!!!!He hates them!.....

God does not recognize these sort of faiths . More then that ,HE is angry to it !!!!!!
These faiths are fruitless , contact-less with GOD , useless with GOD ...
-Entirely useless in God's eyes !...

God hates these people ! They are PHARISEES and "Enemies of God" .

search again
18 Feb 2019 18:37
The Protestant historian Philip Schaff noted:

A portion of the Jewish Christians, however, ................. under the name of Nazarenes; a name perhaps originally given in contempt by the Jews to all Christians as followers of Jesus of Nazareth......

So there were Christians with Jewish practices that were sometimes called Nazarenes that historians teach claimed to have originated from the original Jerusalem church...............

....Thus, originally the term Nazarenes appears to be applied to all Christians, and not some small part of it, as it is being applied to those that agree with the Apostle Paul....

breindenbach church
19 Feb 2019 15:43

re. ACC concerned

Apparently there are talks among some of the North American Leadership that there are churches looking to separate themselves from churches who have allowed or are ok with allowing full membership to individuals who were not baptized by ACC Nazarene hands. So far mostly due to marriage.
This movement is partially to appease the European Elders who have warned ACCN North America that they will cease to recognize those churches allowing or supporting this practice.

that is good to act on this sin unto death issue...but,

there have already been examples for nazarene members marrying outside nazarene churches and still remaining as free members.

Breindenbach Church in Germany has a member that has married a girl outside any nazarene church, and the church accepted her as a free member in Breindench Church.

To: breindenbach chu
19 Feb 2019 17:26
Thank you to the person who posted, "Breindenbach Church in Germany has a member that has married a girl outside any nazarene church, and the church accepted her as a free member in Breindench Church."

Two things bother me about this. 1. when were the leaders of this faith going to tell the members of their changes and 2. I can't help but wonder what is wrong with the ACCN girls for this brother to look outside of the faith?

This brother's actions raise a question for the Germany elders - can girls do the same at the Breidenbach church, because we all know there are a lot more single girls than guys?

... It's evident that the doors for the Gentiles are closing.

names please
19 Feb 2019 22:20
does anyone know the details, as in names of the guy and girl from breidenbach church in question here?

unstable leaders
20 Feb 2019 5:49
What rules are we following here? You ask someone to be committed to a standard and then when you feel that it should or could change you change it? My heart goes out to the youth for living their lives for these promises that the church breaks when the elders say it okay: nothing but a bunch of hypocrites and unstable leaders.

20 Feb 2019 23:57
If theyre already accepting members like that in Europe then why woild the split in America happen to appease European elders as stated? That doesnt make any sense. Sounds to me as if European elders are worse than American ones.

ACCN worldwide
21 Feb 2019 2:57
It is unfortunate and depressing when you think of the leadership in the ACCN worldwide. Do you think that people go to church to serve leaders like D. Savin, etc.,? - These leaders will be accountable for destroying peoples lives. And they will never be my Father on earth. They can form their cult and have a following, but I'm not joining in on their sect.

To: Germany Elders
21 Feb 2019 3:41
I am disgusted in hearing your actions with the brother marrying outside the faith and being accepted as a free member with his wife. You held girls in your church to a standard for years based on Biblical teachings. (Some of these wanted to get married, and some have even left church). So the brothers in your church essentially say that these girls are 'no good.' You are full of hypocrisy, and your unfairness towards these members are going to be on your back. Would you allow girls in your church to do the same?

nebojsa vilus
21 Feb 2019 11:01
i am one of the rejected from the churches in melbourne janko tomek and miodrsag cucanic groups.i was reading some of your comments and foun it interesting how we who considers ourselves as christians have diferent views and faiths.Satan is causin hundreds of years divisions among believers.Jesus and paul prophesied that such things will happen unfortunately.currently i visit the faith baptist church group is nnot big there are different believes AS WELL BUT WE STILL TRY LIVE IN PEACE AMONG US.i FOUND PEACE AND HAPPINES THERE BEING ACCEPTED AND NOT REJECTED AS I EXPERIENCED MANY TIMES BEFORE.I AM NOT PERFECT BUT I BELIVE THAT NOT ONLY ONE GROUP WILL BE SAVED.I AM NOT ACEPTING SIN AS A WAY OF LIFE SO I HAD MANY TIMEDS PROBLEMS WHEREEVER I WENT.IF SOMEONE WANT TO CONTACT ME AND SHARE FAITH,HISTORY OF THE CHURCH AND OTHER TOPICS PLEASE BE FREE. i AM NEBOJSA VILUS G14/100 MOUNT ST HEIDELBERG 3084 VIC AUSTRALIA.MY MOBILE IS 0470344135 AND MY E-MAIL IS I AM SPECILY INTERESTED TO BE CONTACTED WITH SINGLE SISTERS FOR FRIENDSHIP AND GOD W MARIAGE.I AM 44 YO,OVERVEIGHT,HAVE SOME HEALTH PROBLEMS,VERY POOR.NV

nebojsa vilus m
21 Feb 2019 12:11
can someone give me more informations about believers of nazarene background in germany specially the breindebach church.thanks
if someone is interested to learn more about faith,history of the church please have a look on chick publications website.they are strongly against catholicism and other great topics.i warn you that they have some teachings that i do not agree.another website is charity christian fellowship.they are as old anabaptists so many simillar teachings as nazarene churches.if there are brothers that look for girls for mariage these anabaptists have many beautifull girls but they have many small groups all around usa.recently one group split after bad division among themselves.i asked about girl but they did not help me so i am still runing on my own.i hope this can help someone.god bless you.nv

To: nebojsa vilus
21 Feb 2019 12:26
I don't know if this is a joke or if someone may have set you up... but this is not a dating website. I feel bad because you are pouring your heart out trying to reach girls. (I think)
There is a church in Melbourne Australia. I would suggest starting there.

please answer
21 Feb 2019 14:47
nebojsa, do you hold what you were baptised for?
do you hold what you were baptised into?

do you go to other denominations outside of the nazarene church?

USA Member
22 Feb 2019 9:02
I have been an ACCN member for many years, and have seen a wide variety of practices, traditions, and even beliefs among the ACCN elders and churches. Teachings such as fraternization, ACCN-only marriage, and baptism outside of the ACCN are not doctrinal or found in the Bible (unless one twists scriptures)but are rather practices or traditions. There may be value in such things, but it is not the same as doctrine, which does not change. And there can come a time when such practices or traditions change for the good of the church. If someone is truly converted, lives a holy life, and agrees with the doctrines of the church, they should be eligible for membership and marriage in the ACCN. Preserving restrictive practices under the guise of 'defending the faith' will lead to a declining and someday dead denomination, a process that has already started and is sadly gaining momentum. And that is a tragedy.

22 Feb 2019 9:29
It is correct .

Correct from bible !
22 Feb 2019 9:53
"Everyone" who believes that Jesus is the Messiah , has been born of Christ !!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Everyone" who loves the Father also loves His Children ...."

1st John 5;1

Listen to the voice from haven please !

A voice spoke to him a second time ,
"Don't say ! " -the things which GOD has made clean - are IMPURE !!!!!!!

Acts 10 ; 15

To: USA Member
22 Feb 2019 10:12
I agree with you to some point of view that ACCN members are declining, but can you explain the difference from doctrines and practices (traditions)
Many Thanks

cannot change
22 Feb 2019 10:54
Deuteronomy 7:3 cannot change

Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons,

This is a commandment from God to the children of Israel, of children of God, or followers of and part of Gods Church.

Do not try and change Gods principles of Holy Living.

talk to us
22 Feb 2019 10:56
mister nebojsa, where are you?

please explain the issue you have dear one.

come to the table and talk to us.

there are people out here trying to help.

if you are seeking help, then be ready to accept counsel and suggestions.

come and tell us the reasons

very simple
22 Feb 2019 11:05
A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord.

can everyone see the last part........

......but he must belong to the Lord.

this cannot change.

1 Cor.7:39

Do not try and change Gods principles of Holy Living.

22 Feb 2019 11:13
“Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you”
(2 Corinthians 6:14-17).

restoration needed
22 Feb 2019 13:45

try and lose weight.
try and get your life in order alittle.
try and watch your food intake.
try and excercise.
try and get your spiritual health in order alittle.

nobody is going to jump to you, or for you in marriage with this attitude, dear one.

think of Gods way, Gods principles, Gods method, Gods care, Gods love, Gods behaviour, Gods commandments, Gods instructions.

you have to get rid of your way, your principle, your method, your behaviour, your commandments, and your demands, and instructions.

this is what denying yourself is all about.

God has a desire for you, your life, your future, BUT, you have Gods criteria to meet, not your criteria for others to meet.

think and pray about your spiritual health and restoration back into the Church.

Proverbs 24:17
Don’t gloat when your enemy falls, and don’t let your heart rejoice when he stumbles.

22 Feb 2019 14:40
This website is like a game play "hide and seek":

22 Feb 2019 14:47
What do you suggest?

22 Feb 2019 14:59
What have we ccomplished by now?
More hatred toword some people...there is no change everyone stays the same.
OK Moderator think of something different; this is boredom.

22 Feb 2019 15:08
people can come and learn here, if they choose to.
if not, they wont.
there is an option for people to learn from other peoples opinions here.
not be led astray into elders decision of the Church without its members.
this is abuse that we are trying to highlight, that people learn NOT to be enslaved in.

22 Feb 2019 15:11
Hi "game",

You need to think more positively.
There are individuals out there, depressed, aggravated, estranged, lonely.
They come here and see they are not the only ones.
It helps.
They can share their thoughts and feelings with other members and ex-members of ACCN.
It's a relief.
What if this website prevented somebody's, let's just say, suicide?
You never know.
And the abusers inside the ACCN are afraid of this website, trust me.

USA Member
23 Feb 2019 9:29
What is the difference between doctrine and practice/tradition? I wonder if I am being set up here. Because, in my thinking it usually clear although in reality it might be less clear.

Biblical doctrine is a non negotiable eternal truth given by God in the Bible. Tradition/Practice is man made and temporary and should be consistent with and supportive of doctrine. So, marrying a Christian is clearly a doctrine. Marrying within the ACCN is a practice. Likewise, believers baptism is a doctrine, but requiring any prospective ACCN member to be baptized in the ACCN as a condition of membership is a practice. Fraternization is not a doctrine as it is not found in the Bible. It is a practice.

All of the above practices may be good, useful, and wise practices, and if so should be continued. However, there may come a time when the tradition is no longer helpful and may need to change. Or when different practices are ok as long as they are biblically sound.

Our people are intelligent and increasingly Biblically literate, so hanging on to traditions and practices that no longer make sense is harmful. Change for the better is a powerful tool to build unity and hope and is not to be feared.

Costitution 1876
23 Feb 2019 12:13
The "Froehlich-ist/Nazarene/- Constitution" has been made and declared around 1876 ...

Relatively long time ago , when the horse -driven "wooden- plough"
was normally used to cultivate the fields ....

But these days they use "40-60 disc-plough" , with special bearings and drown with a "computer-guided -tractor" that is connected to the satellite system .

You cannot sharpen up the wooden polugh to make more profitable yields!...
Also I don't think you want change over your car for a horse-driven- cart. There is no place for that on the streets and roads .

In the same token God wants more progress !

God is up-to-date with His plans ... God isn't an old God !!!

God wants "gather" more people to be saved /even from the roads or footpaths/ for the eternal life. God opens up the haven fully ,before HE closes it.

God wants a big " Wedding -fest"...
But God will select , Who has "white-wedding-dress" ,or who has not....
Certainly God doesn't give this option to the "Pharisees".

To: Constitution
23 Feb 2019 13:38
All may change but Jesus never...GLORY TO HIS MANE!!

23 Feb 2019 13:51

T0: Moderato
23 Feb 2019 14:52
Thank you; it's misprint.

return for who
23 Feb 2019 22:29
Jesus will return for His followers and His Church.

Jesus will not return for committee based, or constitutionally based members or churches.

the nazarene faith and belief has NOTHING to do with committees or constitutions.

every Christian follower and Church needs the Bible, not committees or constitutions or government by-laws.

24 Feb 2019 14:52
Please don't be carried away by your " Nazarenity " and Nazarene church-ianiti !
You are still in the circle "by two legs" of the "Reformed - Calvinist" main-religion , in the denomination of the SECT or CULT of Samuel Heinrich Froehlich!!!

As many time you lift up the "ZION's HARP"
sing-book , you are using his product of work. He created this book , selecting the songs from the Reformed- Calvinist religion's song-books ...
You are singing Reformist songs actually. How is that ?

Remember to Froehlic ,every time you lift up that "Black-Book "! O.K.?

The Nazarene or ACCN church is governed by Elders -"COMMITTEE"and committees ...So you are belonging to a COMMITTEE who have their own rules and regulations without you consent. Either you want it or not...! How is it sounds ?...

Also ,every-one have bible I can assure you !!!!!!!!

24 Feb 2019 23:22
the nazarenes use the zions harfe not zions harp.

To rectify
25 Feb 2019 0:10

Yes, it is Zions Harfe ... Sorry for the spelling mistake .

It's about time
25 Feb 2019 4:21
It's about time that this cult is dismembered and shut down. Practices and traditions are not part of actual Christianity.
The Bible does not give nazarenes the exclusivity... Yet many many many members believe just that by way of not accepting any other evangelical Christians as saved souls.

Until this basic fundamental truth is not dealt with, this sect is only going to shrink and eventually disappear completely (which may be a sign of God's disapproval too)

A nice clean suit and a big headcovering (babushka or whatever you European dreamers call it) does not make you a good Christian. Acting the part is not the visible evidence of spiritual fruit. It's just be a "good member"... When was the last time your actions in the real world resulted in sharing the gospel and bringing souls to Christ?

4 Mar 2019 8:19
yeah its sad to hear this, if the accn would actually want to change tradition and practices we wouldn't be having this conversation, its because of the leaderships refusal to be modern and non abusive and not be stuck in 19th century europe thaty theres so many issues. Also the european elders think that they can bully leaders here into doing what they want, I'm done with this church, sad to say it but ill no longer be interested in stuff that happens there, I really see all this as God's displeasure with this faith and their unwillingness to change. Its like a slow motion train wreck to say the least!

4 Mar 2019 16:53
A whole new generation of christians has come up believing that it is possible to "ACCSEPT" christ without forsaking the world.

Do not love the world or the things in the world.
If anyone loves the world,the love of the father is not in him.
For all that is in the world...the lust of the flesh,the lust of the eyes,and the pride of not of the father but of the world.

1 John 2;15-16

"The world"
4 Mar 2019 18:27
Notice how the bible gives a big example of what is meant by worldliness: ...the lust of the flesh,the lust of the eyes,and the pride of not of the father but of the world.

It is a problem that is as old as the devil and I think some people make their own interpretations of what "worldliness" is.

keep the faith
4 Mar 2019 21:38
change from any fundamental bible teaching leads to eternal lake of fire.

there is no other way to put it.

be aware, dear one, whoever you are and wherever you are.

do not change the fundamental principles of purity, holiness, godliness, holy living, sins unto death principles.

we all need to contend for the faith ONCE delivered unto the saints.

To: keep the faith
5 Mar 2019 9:09
I've always believed that ALL sins lead to death and the ultimate sin being the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Can someone name what these other "sins unto death" are? Because by definition it implies that there are some sins that are lesser. In my mind no sin is acceptable.
These special "unto death" sins, exactly what are they?

Sins unto death
5 Mar 2019 9:17
These special "unto death" sins, exactly what are they? Reveletion 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

5 Mar 2019 10:23
Depends, if you have some connection with the leaders and elders then there is no sin at all. You can lie, steal, hate your brethren, coveat and you can still remain in the front bench and conduct songs. If you have no link with the leadership, even the smallest mistake is a huge sin according to them.

5 Mar 2019 11:23
This is true I agree with U...but it's only for a while on this eart.
God will judge righteously.In him there is no changes and this is our comfort.

5 Mar 2019 11:37
"On this earth"

one example
6 Mar 2019 13:37
we need to be well aware that no sin will enter into heaven.
if we look into the bible on which sins did Gods people get "stoned to death" for?
was it for any sin, or for some particular sins?
the jewish people as Gods people were stoned to death for blasphemy, but not only for blasphemy.
this could be some comparison in a new testament church in a spiritual doctrine teaching.

24 Sep 2019 15:22
Are there any updates on this topic of the ACCN split anyone? Rumors are running wild. Would like to know if anyones heard any talk?

pretty much soon
24 Sep 2019 21:09

- elders have accepted people from other denominations without baptism
(Tomic and Werner from Strassburg, Canada)

- elders are allowing fallen away members to marry in the church as free members
(Arnold from Greenbank, Australia)

- elders allowed members that have committed adultery to be free in the Fellwoship
(all Hungarian Elders and Paul Pentsa from Marsden, Australia)

and the list goes on..........

if the true, genuine, honest, spiritually, holy & undefiled elders "DONT" split from these sins unto death situations......

"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."
Luke 19:40

true and dangerous
24 Sep 2019 21:11
Ezekiel 33:

7. “Now as for you, son of man, I have appointed you a watchman for the house of Israel; so you will hear a message from My mouth and give them warning from Me.
8. “When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand.
9. “But if you on your part warn a wicked man to turn from his way and he does not turn from his way, he will die in his iniquity, but you have delivered your life.

how to act
24 Sep 2019 21:18
the bible is VERY clear.
we will have fellowship with those sins unto death doers and supporters
we wont.

but, the bible states how we should act towards this filth:

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

2 Cor.6:
.........for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

25 Sep 2019 0:13
Will have 3 sides just like the Doroslovatz

Kitchener Avon Road, Vista, West Akron, Windsor(will have to split)[goodbye All Ontario Sing],Harrow, Richmond Hill, Cleveland, Queens, Hollywood, Colorado Springs, Lawndale, South Bay,Clovis, North Port

All of these are candidates that would want to leave the current ACC and some would lose substantial members when they do.

Most are more interested in the traditional Nazarean religious order with all its man-made rules and orders, and hypocrisies, some elevated awkwardly, blindly and frighteningly to the status of Doctrine. some like the Cleveland Romanian Church are fringe dictatorships - blind leading the blind.

So to Mark Igic who appears to be the Mastermind behind it I say: remember the old Torrance church you grew up in and hated, you're going to find your new denomination/side will be made up of people who have shockingly much less in common than you think they do - just like Torrance. the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.

very true
25 Sep 2019 0:20
thats the reason Torrence split, because of elder Steve Nenadov with his crew accepted members that committed a 'sin unto death'.


it will happen again, when members stand AGAINST the elders errors.

if not, the church and its members will be accountable to God on the last day with the elders grave, filthy & abominable sins'.

only 4
25 Sep 2019 0:23
there is only 4 accn sides.

ACCN (east and west)

25 Sep 2019 1:55
Is this actually being discussed? This will be the end of the ACC of that happens. Also, Richmond Hills? Please. They would NOT be part of this movement. Obviously you are talking about the Richmond Hills in the days of yore.

If it happened, Windsor would suffer a catastrophic split and likely never recover. Vista would lose a significant number. Avon Road could very easily lose a solid quarter. West Akron and Colorado would probably benefit. North Port could shrink into oblivion yes All Ontario Sing would probably be gone forever.

No way
25 Sep 2019 3:50
Personally I do not believe that the ACC can continue to operate on a worldwide scale the way it is now. The European branch and the American branch are wildly different. The European branch is fiercely against allowing outside Christians to become members without being rebaptised, they are also very against outside marriages and will simply not allow it. For the American counterpart to keep doing the same thing and remain in fellowship with the European branch is impossible. Either there will be a split in the US and Canada or they will be completely disfellowshipped by the European/Australian side.

Pare je dobro
25 Sep 2019 5:50
Evlopani starachine da se radovej sa Americký starých,,,NIKAD to ce da se desí. Ako Evlopani starachine hoce da se radovej sa Americký starachine onda sta cekau???

25 Sep 2019 11:46
Can someone please translate?

25 Sep 2019 14:00
need to know which language its in

25 Sep 2019 14:10
It's half Serbian, half Slovak. Someone pretending not to know well, so to throw us off who it is.

It says, the money they are receiving is too good to separate. European elders will NEVER separate from Americans. If they want to separate then what are they waiting for

Looks Serbian
25 Sep 2019 14:14
...Still makes little sense

The money is good

Elderly Elders To Enjoy With An American Elder ,,, NEVER HAPPEN. If Evlopani starachine wants to be happy with american starachine then what are they waiting for ???

to all
25 Sep 2019 18:46
read slowly.............

1 Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

He who loves money will not be satisfied with money, nor he who loves abundance with its income. This too is vanity.

Will not happen!
26 Sep 2019 0:00
The split will never happen. Till this day any elder or minister who visits Europe whether they come from a liberal or conservative church, they will be free to preach. The European elders know precisely what is going on with the liberal churches in the USA. What the European leaders do is impose their strict conservative views on their own members, but they accept the liberals because money ties them together.

26 Sep 2019 0:04
The fact is they don't get much money from ACCN in America. It all comes from sister church.

Everyone has a price
26 Sep 2019 0:05
A well known rich man once said everyone has a price. I think that is true.

It takes a strong character, faith, and trust in God to say no to money or a position and stand up for what is right.

In the European churches, money can buy you a lot of things. You can be a corrupt leader from another country who steals from your customers and go to Europe, and they will lift you up. It only takes $$$!

Sister Church
26 Sep 2019 0:11
What the sister church is doing is not a blessing. They think that they are giving money to the poor, but the money is not going to the poor.

I also wonder if what they are doing is legal.

Some of these families don't have to work. Going to church is a way of life. It is a choice. I don't think you should be paid just for being a member of a church and having kids.

interesting fact
26 Sep 2019 10:25
and if you are outside of Europe and happen to be more conservative then the European elders, you need to give a higher amount of money to the European elders to be accepted by the European elders....

conservative really?
26 Sep 2019 12:28
Lets not confuse conservative with 'traditional' as in the traditional religious Nazarenes' Some of the most religious ACCN churches have the biggest issues with pride,the lust of the eyes, the love of money, conspicuous consumption(they love to show off what they have and can buy incl houses, cars, clothes, watches, vacations, boats, cottages etc), the desire for the spotlight, power,influence, etc etc and and as a result the most infighting, judging,conditional love, alcohol abuse and so on.

26 Sep 2019 13:27
thats right

attempting to prove conservative on the outside, by males wearing hats, but they live in covetousness, they will definitely not be accepted into Gods Kingdom.

traditional again is third thing.

it may be right, but not automatically correct.

not everything in the past was passed down in the correct way.

Both are
26 Sep 2019 13:40
There is plenty if extreme liberal churches too where all that above is the case.

6 Oct 2019 11:43
When a church denomination is crediting a human for its foundation,
(eg: Samuel H. Froehlich) a little bit of glory is taken away from God. And this is how problems start.

Salvation or Elders?
6 Oct 2019 15:23
S.H. Froehlich was a religious figure in the history.
He was a Reformist priest in the 1800th.

I am not going to condemn him , because the others were worst ...
He did something when he started , but he was not accomplished properly everything on the Spiritual - Christian - Way.

And the result was that ; the things went back to "ground zero" , to the LEGALISM .That is causing havoc in these days .

I can say that , he did what he could in the "mud" ...

He was an educated priest , but the Reformist imprint stayed in him.
He was more legalistic then spiritual that stamped out this "New- Faith" ; That has been called as "Apostolic Christians" .

Unfortunately the "feudalistic -legalism" determines and characterizes this movement.

"Salvation -through - elders !..."

6 Oct 2019 17:16
The " elderism " derives from DESPOTISM .....

The result of it is NEOPTISM !

They all originated from the 1700th .

S.H . Froehlich started at the early 1800th.

Please make a research from the dictionary and "google" if you like

6 Oct 2019 18:39
Just correcting the above spelling mistake

just to clarify
6 Oct 2019 23:55
S.H. Froehlich's name is not found in the Bible.
we cannot use his teaching above the teaching of Jesus Christ.

The Nazarenes did not originate from Froehlich.

our foundation is Jesus Christ, not Froehlich

8 Oct 2019 7:07
Speaking of splits, is there any chance that the church known as "Altona 2" will unite with Tarneit?

Can anyone from Australia give some updates as to any crossings over to each other's sides, is Altona 2 growing or is it shrinking? Are they accepted by any of the other churches in Australia (Sydney, Brisbane, Adelaide) obviously they are not accepted by Tarneit. Just curious as it used to be a big topic on this site but lately nobody has mentioned that church.

8 Oct 2019 8:51
What is not possible these days? BUT HEARTS need to be humbled first, repentance take place, and a sincere desire to walk together in the unity of the spirit.

8 Oct 2019 9:51
Has to be submissive to man and not God;that way unity may be obtained.

true unity
8 Oct 2019 11:56
Has to be submissive to GOD and not man; that way TRUE unity may be obtained.

its very easy
8 Oct 2019 21:41
to: reunification

Speaking of splits, is there any chance that the church known as "Altona 2" will unite with Tarneit?

yeah, its quite possible and very easy for it to unite.

Tarneit needs to repent from the sins of:
- stealing
- covetousness
- hatred towards brothers
- stop accepting the unbiblical punishments by Andrew Kozy, continued and added more by Steve Nenadov and then further more by removed elders Paul Pentsa and Andrew Taylor

and then confess their sins, and seek reconciliation from the Church.

starting from removed elder paul pentsa, acting deacon tomek and papuga, the ministers....and then the others down the rows involved.

its very easy, i dont know why they haven't done it yet.

9 Oct 2019 3:09
(Just to clarify)
Which of Froehlich's teachings are being taught above Jesus'?

9 Oct 2019 3:21
Can someone give a brief explanation to those of us in the USA as to why the church hours in Melbourne were divided in two by the elders? I know the elders did that and it's unbiblical. From what I understand, the brothers at that point did not WANT to split. Is that true? I would like a bit of history and also a current update on "Altona 2" if its possible.

Sure Thing
9 Oct 2019 9:08
When Elder Nenadov in 1986 took confirmation vote for trial ministers with only half the church present, because the other half were not in agreement with Elders doing baptism,s they were not present and two brothers were confirmed and two were not, then the oversight was given to Adaelaide Elders.The brothers who were not confirmed rejected the work and continued to preach, others walked out when they preached, and a great turmoil and offense both to members and nonmembers was caused in the church meetings.Very heartbreaking! Later Yugoslav Elders supported half of the church, and one group preached in the morning the other in the afternoon, rotating, but they began to have infighting even among that group (What is called ALTONA 2), and one part left and formed what was called (Lvertone church ) Because of that Yugoslav Elders withdrew their support for both groups. In 1996 all three groups were unified again only to have about Ten members split again after 6 months (they were not happy with leadership and the order or song books main church used)
,when the building was sold, older members and those who opposed the selling of old building and building of new church joined them. Their membership is slowly declining as old members die, and young ones are not allowed to visit Tarniet,( if they do they are frowned upon,) one young couple moved to Tarniet because of this not long ago.

9 Oct 2019 9:52
In Tarneit there are already 2 groups among them selves.One group is against PP,the others are for JT to be ordained as an elder.
Neither group accept Altona 2.

To "UPDATE" for your information, Altona 2 is doing fine.They have their elder ordained by American elders.

You said: Young ones are not allowed to visit Tarneit; that is lie.There are older couple from Altona visiting Tarneit every Sunday morning,they are not frowned upon.The brother gives prayer in Altona on regular bases.

9 Oct 2019 11:20
Forget about history: ponder on what is happening now... this is a new trend.

Windsor ass't
9 Oct 2019 13:22
Can anyone shed light on why Mike Palanacki(Windsor elder) needed 4 visiting elders to be present for a simple vote for assistant elder? Including Bob Varga(Beverly Hills MI),Doug Savin(Toronto), David Freund(Syracuse), and Willy Kurtz(Ancaster,ON). Seems like way overkill. As if the non-eligible/non-interested ministers can't count or can't be trusted to count votes or even more strange that the ELDER BODY wants to keep the results secret to themselves only and too bad for the congregation they supposedly serve. Are they worried about voting irregularities like in some countries' presidential elections or what?

9 Oct 2019 13:42
Altona 2 is also currently divided in two separate groups. Over what issues, I dont know

Not clear
9 Oct 2019 14:05
So which group is against Pensa? Is it the same group that is pushing for JT to become Elder, even though he would not want o submit to a vote by secret ballots for him because he feels like he had enough support in past? ARE TWO VOTES NOT ENOUGH? Or is it the other group you say exists There? And why would they be against their Elder?

And if the young from Altona 2 are allowed to visit Tarniet, when was the last time they visited, and why has ministers own daughter and son in law taken membership in Tarniet? Is it because they were shunned by their leadership for visiting Tarniet, that was the reasons spread around. What are the real reasons here? Who is telling the truth?

9 Oct 2019 16:40
I'm sorry for mis-understanding; I should put it this way.One group is for JT to be an elder,the others don't want him.

And the young couple that went to Tarneit,he got persuaded by some members from Tarneit and influenced by his father from PADINA.
This young brother knows well how to manipulate with JT's encouragement.

And for other young ones,you should ask them why they don't visit Tarneit before writing about them.

Clear as mud
9 Oct 2019 18:45
So why do you young people from Altona 2, do not visit Tarniet, or if you do, when was the last time you visited that church or any other church for that matter?

To confirmed, you write "forget about history, ponder on what is happening now...this is a new trends

What are you referring too? What is that new trend you write about,what is happening now?

History can not be ignored, nor will God forget our past, unless he washed away our sins! They are never to be mentioned again, but if our past is not pleasing to God, we 'll have to give an account for every ideal word and actions or deeds done, whether good or bad!

what still is undone
9 Oct 2019 20:24
the past is the past ONLY THEN when you repent from the sin, confess the sin, and receive the punishment by measure.

until this is accomplished, it is still present, not the past.

For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

More questions
10 Oct 2019 2:42
The young brother that crossed over, is he now "against" Altona 2? Apparently there was quite a schism in Europe when the wedding took place, as Altona 2 is not quite "official." I really don't understand why, as the wedding WAS allowed to take place. I keep hearing BOTH Tarneit and Altona 2 are recognized internationally, so then what is the problem?

Boy, what a history here! Now a second, perhaps more controversial question. Do young people from Tarneit visit Altona 2 and are they accepted THERE?

10 Oct 2019 11:13
I keep hearing BOTH Tarneit and Altona 2 are recognized internationally, so then what is the problem?

its the hatred of Tarneit towards Altona 2 thats the issue.

Tarneit stole the church money from Altona 2, yet Tarneit is STILL showing hatred.

God cannot give peace to those that steal, and live in this sin.

Holy supper
10 Oct 2019 12:25
Why did Pentsa not serve holy supper im Brisbane at the baptism? Thats unhesrd of!!!!

Oh Really
10 Oct 2019 20:34
When have you been at a Baptism in Mansfield and had "Holy supper or communion served? They have it at a different time just for their members, they know their members, others from different congregations might be under restrictions that those elders are not aware of, so they always practiced as do the sister church, not after Baptismims. So now you heard it. If you did not know it before, so your statement "That's unhesrd of "should be "(unheard of), and it is you who has not heard of it, not every one is ignorant of what takes place in other churches like our American writers.

10 Oct 2019 20:40
MANY changes have been implemented by elders through the years.

as long as the elders change the ordinance, its ok.

but, if any other member tries to change something, every elder will most probably discipline you.

hypocrisy at high level.

partiality at high level.

respect of persons at high level.

shame and disappointing.

a lot of elders with be surprised on the last day...

To: more questions
10 Oct 2019 21:31
The reason for them trying to stop the wedding is because of hatred. It stemmed from politics with the Tomaks and his connection to the Padina Serbia church. Now that the couple in question moved from Altona 2 to Altona 1 (Tarneit), Tomak's side is most likely happy about the move and more accepting.

There is more to be said about that couple in question, which moved.

for Tomek and co
10 Oct 2019 22:21
2 Peter 2:14
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

1 Timothy 6:5
Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

To Oh Really
10 Oct 2019 22:41
Your statement "not after Baptismims" should be "not after Baptisms'" in the plural sense. Also your statement saying "not every one is ignorant of what takes place in other churches like our American writers." We Americans are not as ignorant as you may think!! LOL

Let it be
11 Oct 2019 2:02
Leave him alone. He's obviously a PP supporter.

Holy supper
11 Oct 2019 4:40
Actually, I simply meant it is unheard of in Australian churches. I didnt realize you follow the American way now as it seems most of you are against American churches. I apologize for being an ignorant American; if only I was a smart Australian.

Oh Really
11 Oct 2019 11:35
To "Holy supper" writer,

Ask your parent/s, whether he/they recall how in Altona (Melbourne),in 1978, after the baptism of eight souls, the Elders present from USA, Yugoslavia, and Adelaide, did not serve communion due to the previous work done in church, where 3 ministers were removed by the Elders because of all the infighting among the first bench.

So you are not correct in saying "I simply meant it is unheard of in Australian churches" .

You do not know what the older elders did when certain conditions arouse in the congregations they served.

11 Oct 2019 11:53
which ministers were removed?
which minsters were confirmed?

which minsters rejected the work, and continued preaching?

Oh Really
11 Oct 2019 12:54
To your question, which ministers were removed, it was Janko Stefenides Jnr., Miodrag Cucanic,and Ivo Flora.this was in 1978.
These afterwards separated from the main churches and gathered elsewhere, but some soon came back. Miodrag Cucanic stayed home for some eight years afterwards.

In 1986, Elders Neadov and Azlen did work, and M. Tomek and M.Stanjo rejected the work and continued to preach, even though they were not voted by the church, thus forming the two groups, one was called "peace loving" "MirnoLjubljiv" (Altona 1) and the other was called "rebels " "Buntovnici "(Altona 2), by the Elders Nenadov and Azlen.,

how come
11 Oct 2019 13:15
why were they removed?
who removed them?

Altona 2 History
11 Oct 2019 15:04
... Stayed home for 8 years, is this the same one who is now elder? If yes, then now I know more about Altona 2 than I bargained for. Now the picture is becoming clearer and clearer. I wish this was explained earlier on here by you who know this history "down there." Lets here more.

yeah or nay
11 Oct 2019 15:48
who was in the wrong?

who was in the right?

which elders did work with the church?

which elders did work without the church?

To yea and nay.
11 Oct 2019 16:17
Most of the Elders that did the work with the church, are dead or in nursing homes now!
Who was in the wrong? Depends on who you talk to! But in vain are converts questioned at provings about Matthew 18, if someone offends, what should be done.In the time of being the one who offended, members can call for other elders to protect them, as if they are the ones being wronged.
You be the Judge!

11 Oct 2019 23:19
Andrew Kozy was in the wrong, doing work with the churches approval or preparation.
Steve Nenadov accepted the wrongful work of Kozy and continued in it for many years.
Paul Pentsa and Endre Sabo continued further more.

11 Oct 2019 23:45
Andrew Kozy was in the wrong, doing work with the churches approval or preparation

should be:

Andrew Kozy was in the wrong, doing work WITHOUT the churches approval or preparation

Not clear
12 Oct 2019 7:42
How does a church prepare work for the Elders?

And how can a church prepare work, if the church is in turmoil and has infighting? And what if that church doesn't accept the Elders to do what should be done,as Paul wrote to the church of Corinth, that when he comes again, "he will not spare"!

Did the church of Corinth have to approve Paul's going there? Did they have to prepare the work for him? Paul wrote " in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established

What you are implying is not practical or Biblical. How can the ones who created the problems have a right to be both Judge and jury?

Are they the ones who will then use the "Rod that Paul spoke about?

Oh yes, I heard that some even spat on Kozy, is that true?

12 Oct 2019 7:47
Maybe they are Greek. What disgusting so called members

12 Oct 2019 7:58
Yes I heard that also, that a person with the last name Cucanic, spat and verbally abused Kozy the old Elder. He later stopped going to church.

12 Oct 2019 9:10
When members emigrated from former Yugoslavia,they practised close baptism and weddings which is still observed in some European countries. Before Kozy,there were 2 closed baptisms done by Steva Babin and Kovac.
When Kozy came he was insisting for open,but majority members were for closed.

Another instance! Kozy himself elected few brothers for the ministry but some members stood against his "REGIME" and walked out and Kozy put them under discipline. "POD PRUT" And that's how this problem started.

Just like these days... if you don't agree with elder(s),you will be punished.

12 Oct 2019 9:40
To some of you Americans and Canadians!! why are you so curious about Australia,when you have so much problems in your churches.
Fix your backyard first!!

To: Altona 2 History
12 Oct 2019 13:52
Why are you going back to a topic that was done 40+ years ago? Do something about what is happening now in the USA churches. Why are the elders abusing their power, and not respecting the church members? The committee is not the mother of the church; they are not God and should not be disrespectful to the church members. PERIOD!

Stop being nosey and go to your church and do something today about the problems of today.

Do something now, stop those elders who abuse their power and leave the past. You cannot return what was done 40 + years ago. It's done. That is in God's hands to judge now. You have an opportunity to make things right based on what is going on today with your elders.

Unbelievable FAITH
12 Oct 2019 17:50
"To Altona 2 History " ....

Yes ! You are right from America ... These Ignorant , "So called- -NAZARENE -" people were fighting in Australia for 40+ years .
And the subject was : Who is the boss /the ELDER/ in the Church ? !
They are "unbelievable- believers " !!! Or just faithless pagans, I think ...

They are the ones who can be ready to sacrifices their life for the enemies , but also they are the ones , who are ready suffocate their"own- Christian- Brothers" ,in a "spoon of water "...

And they think it is normal ...
Instead of that, it is ridiculous !!!!!

They were playing childish -"quarreling -game" and Christian- "BINGO" for 40+ years ?!...,Just to choose who will be teaching and what ???!

Not to mention that , no one has been edified in any of these teaching ... The merit of Jesus Christ and GOD left out ...

The problem is that they destroyed "two" young generations who are spiritually grown sick , or just left the Church .

Is it a "Christ -Following -NAZARENE "or ACCN attitude ?????!

I am concerned and not certain of it .

The ACCN people needs a "corporate - repentance" , because their "TITANIC " is nearly under the water ....

They were running against GOD"s will , because GOD is love .

Where there is no love , God is not there and the Satan is present.

12 Oct 2019 18:25
Yes, all the infighting and hatred has caused plenty of damage to the younger generations especially by driving them away and no it is not normal or healthy or Godly.

12 Oct 2019 23:33
why doesnt anyone state what did KOZY ANDREW do to be treated that way?

why only one sided?

To fix
13 Oct 2019 6:42
I do agree that certain US and Canadian churches have their problems, BUT, but relatively speaking in terms of the small number of churches in Australia, their problems are quite disproportionate. Are the churches in Australia suffering from an identity crisis - hoping to be European, European-light/North America-conservative,North America progressive? Or is there something there that seems to attract the glory/attention/power/money lovers?

Do the bad deeds of a few make for more to be corrupted? Or bring out the anger and conflict in those who do seek to walk humbly with their God?

Are we talking 5 churches there? 10?

To Explain
13 Oct 2019 9:01
Elder Andrew Kozy came to Australia and spent two months at a time.In 1978 after the three ministers were removed by a group of Elders, there was a need to confirm and select new trial ministers ,he worked with the church, the American way,Allowing the church to nominate and vote by secret ballots.Some of the removed ministers and their supporters refused to take ballots,and the rest that did take ballots voted positive for the two voted on.These removed ministers and supporters then created such a havoc and disturbance, that Andrew Kozy had to nominate 4 candidates for new trials ministers and the church was to again vote by secret ballots, again the same caused uproar and did not take ballots,and two were voted which their supporters did not approve of, then came full attacking by Cucanic Brothers and others on Kozy and what was to be a holy work became like a brawl in a bar, shouting and spitting at Kozy. Columbia Station fights would be called mild compared to what took place in Altona.There only so much a person can take, so Elder Kozy and Adelaide Elders after giving each desenter the chance to remove their names from a pettion they signed requesting all former work to be nullified and redone and to be served communion,and those that refused were placed under the Rod(12) and one was excommunicated with hope.

Please contemplate
13 Oct 2019 14:40
To; "To explain "

Would you like to contemplate and explain , what was the reason , why the named three - ministers had to be removed from their positions ,in 1978 ?

* What seemed to be their regrettable ,irriversible SIN at that time to remove them drustically and promptly ?

* Who were instigating the American Elders to deliver that act, against them ?

13 Oct 2019 15:46
All six Elders had their meeting withh five ministers at that time, "what seemed to be their regrettable,irriversable SIN....." and " who were instigating the American Elders to deliver that act, against them?" Are two questions that we might never grt to know, as the church was not at that meeting, only the nine mentioned were present, And it was not only the American Elders, it was unanimous among the six Elders present.And they presented to the church their findings and one American Elder stated that he never ever heard or sheen what took place at that meeting in the "World among nonmembers".

I guess we will never know more than what we were told, most of those involved are long gone to meet the Lord and receive what the Lord has for them, either to hear well done faithful servant, or I know you not, depart from me into the Lake of fire. What we sow is what we shall reap, and there is no refspector of persons with God, Elders or lay members, all will be judged as our deeds were on earth. There is no gain eternal to have a position, actually those in authority will have more to give account for other souls as well as their own, to whom much is given, of him much will be required.

The past is past for thoseHoly are not with us anymore, why bother with all the contemplating?

All the best in your search answers.

Hint or Clue
14 Oct 2019 12:21
Does anyone can give a "HEALTHY "clue or hint, that ;
What caused the "antagonistic - theoretical -differences " between the six elders and 5 ministers in the Melbourne Church in 1978 ?

Most of the participants are still alive in Australia!

Only a couple of elders died since in America. They were the ones who have organized and conducted that havoc.

The concern in that, the same toxic is spread among the church- members for 40+ years and causing the " ulcerous - abscess with
" pus ".

The "time " does not heal anything!

Only the people try to live with it,
that is not good enough for the salvation.

This is the reality .

Oh Really
14 Oct 2019 15:59
Elders who have pasted away, who ever did work in Australian churches.

Steven Babin (US), S.Kovac (US), Steven Azlen (Can),Andrew Kozy (US,Steve Nenadov (US),Mike Azlen (US),Paci Lajos (Yugo.), Steve Burcar(US), Steve Sackach (US), John Popp(US),Matija Frieymier(AU), Steva Girsic (Yugo), Misa Veres (AU), Misa Murtin (Yugo),Jonica Valijan (Yugo), Toma Negru (Yugo),Frank Sabo(Can),Fred Ganglok (US),George Pavkov (US).Boris Vuijcic (Au/US)

So many Elders tried to fix the problems in Australia,Every one had eir own reciepe, looks like too mamy cooks spoil the broth. Are the Elders at fault, or the members who they tried to serve, or the members who would not take their advice, because it did not serve their purpose?

Oh Really
14 Oct 2019 16:04
Shoud read "Passed Away"

Still open question
14 Oct 2019 18:10

Lot's of "dead people" in the history of the Australian Nazarenes....!!!!!

20 elders have" failed to make peace .It is not a good ratio either.
It is a failure above everything .

But what happened in 1978 at the culmination of all the events ?

This question is still open .

To open Question!
14 Oct 2019 22:36
What do you mean, what happend in 1978......? It was explained what took place. Who or why we will never know, unless those "participants" who " Hint or Clue" writer says are still alive can relate their side, but will it be the truth? Or just justified for what they did?
You should ask them personally , if you know them, and let us know too!
Not that it will make any difference, it will not change anything! What was done was done.

elders in fault
14 Oct 2019 23:09
to: explain

re.he worked with the church, the American way

nobody and no church gave any elder authority to rule above Christ, nor Christ's members.
did anyone, or any church in australia give authority to andrew kozy to rule above Christ, nor Christs members either.
did any church allow any american elder to change the practice to the american way.

so, andrew kozy DID do things without the church, and so did nenadov, pentsa.....etc

the elders are repeating the unbiblical history again and again.....

15 Oct 2019 0:14
I'm reminded of what Jesus said to the Pharisees, when he told them "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you and be given to a nation bearing the fruits thereof." I would think His words are applicable to the Acc/Naz also. 

Sad to say I believe the Lord has removed the candlestick out of its place years ago and  we've been doing church? without His blessing for years. 

The Lord speaks to us in 2 Corinthians, especially when He says "Come out from among them, and be ye separate".  

Knowing the cause
15 Oct 2019 1:18
Becoming aware of what went wrong and how those actions are still affecting the church today may lead those people still alive to reflect on what part they played - Lord willing.

15 Oct 2019 13:33
Hopefully they will, but to do so they would need to humbly acknowledge, repent and fully surrender themselves.  Somehow I can't see that happening with all the mud flying around. There is hatred here! There is devouring and consuming! No peace until your own justice is fulfilled here and now! I understand you are all hurt. I'm hurt too! I understand the feeling of not being able to submit to leadership because of their terrible failures. But it doesn't edify you in any way by thowing stones. Remember what Jesus said, "He that is without sin let him cast the first stone.". It fathoms me why would you stay within the Nazarenes!   Gather yourselves 3 or 4 families, move into a local subdivision, no more than 2 blocks from each other and be the Nazarenes that you should be among the lost souls around you. None of this big church stuff, but gather in your homes, have bible studies and Sunday meetings taking turns to have a message. Yes, without an elder! Don't worry, if your sincere, loving, forgiving, forbearing each other, confessing you faults to one another and having true fellowship;   a sincere elder will find you. Or maybe you can ask and search one out.

To Elders in Fault
15 Oct 2019 19:10
Who gave your church the "Practice" you are refferring to, which was changed to "Ammerican Way"? Is your practice backed by scripture?
1.John Baptist, baptised in the Jordan River,Open for all to see, even those whom John saw as unworthy to be baptised because they lacked the fruit of repantace, God sent the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove openly on Jesus.

2.Voting for ministers or Elders,where did it take place in the Bible? Other then when they cast lots to replace Judas! Paul wrote to Titus (an Elder) How to select and who could hold that Office, and He was to ordain Elders in every church.No mention of what practice was used,casting lots,secret ballots,or standing, or raising the hand or verbally saying yes or no.

So how important are those practices that they did such shameful acts to an Elder, who they claim had no right to do that. Who gave that Elder the power or authority to Baptize souls? It wasn't the churches in Australia, because,prior to American Elders first baptising Australian converts,these brothers were enpowered to Baptize.

lordship or servant
16 Oct 2019 18:54
Luke 10:
16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

to hear you need to listern.

to ask means you are being humble

to serve means acting like a lord is not possible

this verse refers to elders/minsters towards the church.

being a lord is not allowed.

elders need to serve the church and its members by asking & hearing, not by dictating and telling.

Luke 10
16 Oct 2019 19:27
Looks like you need to Go back to Sunday School, dear writer of lordship or servant.
That portions of scripture was addressed to the seventy whom the Lord appointed to go before him, where he will be going to preach.The church was not yet formed.
Yes it states in Peters writings that the Elders are not to be as lords over God's heritage, but to be examples to the flock.But they are also given the oversight of the flock, If they have the oversight and the wolf comes and takes some lambs,who will give account? The church members or the shepherds who did not care for the sheep?

Oversight of flock
16 Oct 2019 20:52
And in what manner should this oversight be conducted?

no difference
16 Oct 2019 23:14
The church was not yet formed.

doesnt make any difference from the teaching of Jesus Christ.

its still the same teaching goes for anyone and everyone, everywhere.

oversight does not mean lordship.

it means:
- responsibility for a job or activity and for making sure it is being done correctly.

18 Oct 2019 6:03
There is more and more talk of a split here in North America.

No ,Why?
18 Oct 2019 8:08
Can you explain why they would split?

Is that WEDDING in Brunswick Hills the "straw that broke the camels back"? Or "the nail in the coffin"?

And which churches would be affected by this split?

So So Sad!

Separation of Sins
18 Oct 2019 23:47
The Separation will be over the interpretation of "Sins Unto Death". The new practice of this doctrine is that there is only one "Sin Unto Death" Blasphemy. The European Churches do not accept this interpretation or practice. The sad part is that several congregations/families will be torn apart.

stand up Zion
19 Oct 2019 0:36
the new theory being crept in by the ACCN elders is 'separation from the Church'

rather then

'sin unto death'.

separation from the church is not a biblical term

sin unto death is a biblical term.

why do most churches not stand up for the biblical term?????????????

19 Oct 2019 7:53
The sins of separations are biblical, in the old testament, certain sins which were committed by a person, that person was to be "cut off from among his people..." that man shall bear his SIN " Numbers 9 verse 13!
The sins punished by death were a different category, they were at the mouth of two or three witnesses taken out of the city and stoned to death, or burned at the stake.Among those sins were adultery, Fornication,Witchcraft,Idolatry, Animal Defilement,Homosexuality, Murders, and others.

19 Oct 2019 9:34
Can someone explain what is BLASPHEMY "sin unto death"?

Don't go back
19 Oct 2019 11:02

JESUS has given to us a new rule a new commandment,
" To love each other... "

Don't go back to the old testament please .
Jesus took the sins onto the cross .That's why there is only one "Sin unto death", the;
"BLASPHEMY against GOD and his HOLY SPIRIT"...

If you believe in JESUS , you have to follow JESUS ,no one else.
Please read your NEW TESTAMENT and adhere to it...

JESUS had a new mission to us , to redeem us and offer us Eternal Life, that has not been given before .JESUS is God !/because JESUS and the FATHER are one/, the Son of GOD in HAVEN !!!

In Jesus, GOD has changed everything .The old rules are renewed and abolished by JESUS .

If you want to keep, what it is in the "old testament", you have to find a doctor ASAP and get "circumcised". O.K ?

But you won't be redeemed , your life will end up in the grave , like the old testament people's life .

19 Oct 2019 11:15

Please read :

Matt. 12: 31,32 verses

19 Oct 2019 20:00
According to the Bible in Revelation 21:8,
these are "Sins unto death",

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Rev 21:8

- fearful (who fear man more than God)
- unbelieving (those who do not believe God)
- abominable (sinful sinners)
- murderers
- whoremongers (adultery and fornication)
- idolaters (worshiping of idols and worshiping false religions)
- all liars

You will not go to hell ONLY if you commit blasphemy, you will go to hell if you commit "any" of these sins mentioned in Rev. 21:8

Reffering to ...
19 Oct 2019 21:39

The above's are referring to the "Non-Christians" , who don't even know who Jesus is .
Please read ;3;26,27

"You are all God's children by believing in Christ Jesus "

"Clearly, all of you who were baptized in Christ's name,
have clothed yourselves with Christ ."

Confess ...
19 Oct 2019 22:20

Christians have the option to be forgiven for "some of the transgression" , if they confess it in the right manner .

But keep it in mind , the intentional sins with no repentance are deadly .

Referring to
19 Oct 2019 22:27
Gal. 3; 26,27

Oh Really
19 Oct 2019 22:30
In the New Testament it is recorded the following.

"For th prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost 2 Peter verse 21

"Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine"
1 Timothy 4/13

"And that from a child thou has know the Holy scriptures, which are able to make these wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine , for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."2 Timothy 3/15-17.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish these law. Romans 3/31

So which scriptures was Timothy to continue reading, and which scriptures were make the man of God wise? Is it not the Old Testament? There was no New Testament as yet. Yet the scriptures that faithful man of old wrote were inspired by the "Holy Ghost . Paul could not have known whatsn was, unless he read the Old Testament. And reading the Old Testament reveals the coming of Christ, who himself said that he did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfil it, and that not one jot or title will pass until all will be fulfilled.

So you see that we can not disregard God's Word, be it recorded in the Old Testament or New Testament .You are talking about salvation by circumcision, that has nothing to do with what was written about sins of separation. SIN is still SIN today in God's eyes, it has not changed, God did not change, but that He is gracious and willing to forgive us our past sins because of what our Lord and Savior did for us on the cross. Yet if we are to commit sins wilfully after we hav received the knowledge of truth, there is no more sacrifice for such sins.Read Hebrews 10/26-31 or Hebrews 6/4-8 These are New Testament teachings, yet they had reference from old Testament.
You have not right to take things out or add things from God's Word.

to split
21 Oct 2019 5:07
What new information or details do you have?

private island
21 Oct 2019 6:30
new information? I heard on the gossip chain that PP jr might have bought his own private island and then lost it when he declared banckruptcy, anyone else hearing similar things?

clean cup please
21 Oct 2019 9:26
no, didnt hear that
just heard PP bought a new glass cup to serve holy communion only for his wife thats not a member of marsden.
because PP said it will be served only for marsden members...

Oh Really
21 Oct 2019 13:32
Why would you spread more lies? Absolutely not true! Where do people come up with this Lie? Those communion glasses were used for many communions before. There are many members who can testify that his wife received no special cup! Shame on you to speak and spread evil untruth!

not marsden member
21 Oct 2019 16:29
didnt receive a special cup?

what about getting it at all when she is not a marsden member?

Mr.& Mrs.
21 Oct 2019 22:14
What are you people all about, the Melbourne cup race is on the first Tuesday of November. DO They drink from that special cup? Did J.P. or his wife get a cup of her/his own so they can celebrate after the race?

members or non
25 Oct 2019 0:08
JP or GP is not the thing in question here.

its lies from removed elder paul pentsa that continues to do spiritually work unworthily.
that during the most holy part by serving communion.

he first says it will be for marsden members only, and then lies and changes by giving to non-marsden members.


the weird thing is, marsden members STILL keep their mouth shut.....

horse or hen races
25 Oct 2019 0:10
dont try and change the subject by bringing in melbourne cup or sydney cup hen or horse racing.

whats that got to do with the price of cleaner wine glasses in marsden or colorado spring?

TO: members or non
26 Oct 2019 15:17
Marsden people HAVE spoken up, many others over the years have spoken to PP and reminded him to correct his evil ways... he won't and people live on with their faith, belief's etc... they don't let PP worry them...only God knows what follows him in his future.

Similarly ... The moderator has been reminded time after time to shut this website as it is no peaceful solution long term and has no worth, but just allows rants and vents to occur... it has proven to be of no effect. The same here, like PP he (moderator) won't listen.. PP won't listen either, same stubbornness

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body"

So what the moderator does, or PP does, or any other unworthy person does... they do it all to themselves... it has no effect on others. Unless you allow it to get to you.. then it could make you depressed.

Don't let the sins or abuse of others rule you, disturb you or worry you.

28 Oct 2019 18:47
So PP (in Marsden- Australia) allowed a greeting song for Hevesi a person who has adulted by marrying again whilst his 'Ex' is a faithful lady yesterday...Oh no.

29 Oct 2019 3:09
The Apostolic Christians  were always divided on the position of re-marriage.  I don't know the situation at hand but it'll never get resolved unless the truth of scripture is acknowledged.   It's  simple to understand  this doctrine but extremely difficult to accept and live out.

very clear
29 Oct 2019 15:12
the bible is VERY clear on this topic

(only if we choose to want to accept it)

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

notice the wording......

"whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

this is not hard to understand!!!!

if the innocent spouse is not in fault, does NOT allowed them to remarry.

it is VERY clear.

sandor is an adulterer and his 2nd wife is an adulteress.
Marsden has accepted them in the fellowship.

Marsden has accepted members that have committed sins unto death into the fellowship.

this is a grave error of sin.

Very Clear? Not So
29 Oct 2019 22:54
The syntax is different in Hungarian and German. Also you just added a phrase that is not even in the English Bible "if the innocent spouse is not in fault, does NOT allowed them to remarry" You are quoting that by inference!

Revelation 22:18 - For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

To: VeryClear?NotSo
30 Oct 2019 1:56
If you believe that a person is allowed to divorce and then remarry, then the Word of God in Matt 5:32 is wrong; which says "whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery". If it is 'true' that a person 'does' have permission to get divorced and then may remarry again; that means that (you are correct, and) Matt: 5:32 is untrue.

Lo, in Mark 10:11 the Lord himself expressly says, "Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery" Is remarrying permitted? Or, is remarrying a sin? Who is correct here? The Word of God or you?

30 Oct 2019 3:13
The ACC churches never held a position against remarriage from its foundings! How can you blame Marsden or any other church for allowing such relationships? ?

Please explain the different syntax that is in Hungarian and German.

30 Oct 2019 8:32
God's will is; for husband and wife to stay together:
Therefore what God has joined together,let not man separate.

But human's will is; I don't like my spouse anymore "I want a change"!
It's sad that this is happening among accn who were once enlightened and become partakes of the holy spirit.

30 Oct 2019 23:08
Also you just added a phrase that is not even in the English Bible "if the innocent spouse is not in fault, does NOT allowed them to remarry" You are quoting that by inference!

I am not adding.

I was commenting on the meaning of Matt 5.32

was original
30 Oct 2019 23:17
The ACC churches never held a position against remarriage from its foundings!

simply not true.

the original teaching and orgin of the ACC, ACCN, NCC east and west conferences DID originally believe, teach and practise that remarriage is not permitted according to Matt 5:32, Mark 10:11, Matt.19:6....etc

samuel froelich also in his diaries, notes and sermons condemned remarriage.

anyway, the bible is above samuel froelich anyway, but, just a note to share on this.

cannot change
30 Oct 2019 23:19
The syntax is different in Hungarian and German.

not true.

its called willingness of accepting misinterpretations.

all original bibles in every language agree in each and every verse, including this and these one/s.

can anyone not see
30 Oct 2019 23:23
can anyone NOT see this?

when this topic is discussed, many people quote bible verses condemning remarriage.


nobody has ever quoted a bible verse that states remarriage is allowed, remarriage is biblically allowed, remarriage was fine in this and this case, this and this person remarried in this chapter or examples from the bible...etc

can people see this?

30 Oct 2019 23:24
to: Berean

do you happen to be an elder, a wife of an elder, or daughter of an elder, or son of an elder?

31 Oct 2019 0:39
Not at all. Just a memember of the the accn.

31 Oct 2019 0:45
I'd be very interested to see where in Froehlich's diaries he condemns remarriage. Could you provide the volume and page number? I'm asking sincerely, I'd like to know because I could never find any.

31 Oct 2019 3:31
Matt 5:32 is not a verse that allows remarriage. It's a verse that is allowing separation. If a spouse is continually living in adultery, separation is permitted. But no remarriage. Jesus makes that clear in other passages. 

Apostle Paul says in 1 Cor 7:10-11 the same thing that Jesus is saying and puts some words of his own and says that if a brother or sister has an unbelieving spouse that wants to stay together, they shouldn't divorce them or leave them.  But if the unbelieving depart, the brother or sister won't be in bondage (or sinning) for the fact that their spouse is leaving.  This is not permitting remarriage, but only remaining unmarried or reconciliation.

31 Oct 2019 17:22
When do you people consider a marriage to be a marriage? If one marries while in unbelief, and in that unbelief situation his or her marriage goes bad and ends up in divorce, and then they become converted, are they to stay single? Or are they allowed to marry? Would that also be considered as living in "adultery", if he/she was to marry, even if his/her former spouse has moved on and married or living common law with another person/s?

Or if he/she marries another spouse while in unbelief, is her/his children considered as born in sin? And when they become converted, are they expected to live separate lives from the new spouse, as their union would be considered an unholy and sinful union? Living in Adultery while being together!!!

There are many members who are now married to new spouses,and are part of the church! and yet they were previously "Joined" to others spouses and maybe have children by them, How can we become clean of all this confusion, if you can not divorce when the partner commits grave sins against an innocent spouse? When one person is Joined to another, those two become one! Yet if that union is defiled, you would want that the innocent spouse suffer, and remain single? Is that what you mean, or is it that the only exception of divorce/remarriage would be "Except for fornication"???

Be careful how you Judge!

prior to the baptism
31 Oct 2019 22:36
all of us have sinned, made incorrect decisions, erred from the truth, lied, stole, committed murder, had kids out of wedlock, married a rich person just because they are rich, married and divorced several times, lived with a partner without signing the marriage documents ... or any other sin... the list is BIG or SMALL but all are sins...

Once the old man dies and his old sins buried, (the ones confessed I stress) then IS IT RIGHT TO BRING BACK THE DEAD AND BURIED SINS??

Romans 11:27 - Psalms 103:12 - Hebrew 8:12 etc...

after born again
1 Nov 2019 0:06
we are discussing the issue of 2 members not prior to baptism.

as in the example with SH.

the issue of marriage in the faith, and when one committs a sin unto death.

in this case, the innocent spouse CANNOT remarry.

this is the issue being discussed.

1 Nov 2019 8:20
I can hear your heart cry out. I'd  like to give you another answer but I can't . The answer lies within the authority of the scriptures. In Psalm 19 it talks about the law of the Lord being perfect, and He came here to fulfill that law. the law of prohibiting adultery was one of those laws and he has the the authority to define what it consists of. Adultery is not only a sin but also a lifestyle. Anyone in an adulterous lifestyle needs to repent whether believer or unbeliever or you won't be part of the kingdom of God. Unbelievers with relationships that are with fornication or homosexual are no different. We would say they need to repent, I'm sure you'd agree. Adultery is no different.

 It just seems unjust to separate a couple because they made a mistake early in life. When Jesus was here with us, I'm sure he saw a lot of brokenness. His whole creation was all messed up because of sin. But He came to restore everything.  There are so many "what if" senerios raised in the divorce-remarriage picture that the only answer would be (if you want to follow the truth in scipture) is to separate. Even the disciples stuggled with this statement. He responded to them by addressing the need to commit ones self to be a eunuch  for the kingdom of God's  sake. If we want to serve him as our King we need to fully surrender ourselves to His Lordship. I have a question to  whomever it applies - Has the scripture ever convicted you that the relationship you have may be a sinful one and that perhaps you need to repent and separate?

A big problem would be I don't think the elders are ready to deal with separations involving remarriage situations. You'd have to get some "outside " help on dealing with this. I don't think even one elder would support or work with the cause of helpping a couple separate. Which continues to tell me that the remarraige doctrine was never ingrained in the formation of the denomination.i might be wrong and I'll patiently wait for anything in Frohlich's diaries

to questions???
1 Nov 2019 9:04
issues being discussed are before baptism - in unbelief

even if incorrect marriage occurred?

not all marriages are united with God ( even in unbelief )

satan worshippers get married, pre-arranged marriages, marrying just for wealth - you hear about it all the time - then divorce occurs etc... this is not FROM GOD - man made decisions

these, if repented prior to baptism - should never be mentioned again...they are buried and God says ' your iniquities will I remember NO MORE ..

but there are always those few who like to resurrect the old mans deeds - if one repents who are we to question their previous life.

2 Nov 2019 3:23
Dear 'Question???'
Marriage is something God gave man and woman from the beginning and is begins when both have fully committed their lives? together. In my opinion it needs to be consummated as well. This is for believers or unbelievers alike. 

If a man and a woman would get married then later get divorced, in an unbelieving state, they would do "what is right in their own eyes" and probably remarry. If they would convert in their divorced state, they should try to reconcile with their spouse (if he/she is not re-married already). Otherwise, he should make himself a eunuch for the kingdom of heavens sake. In other words,stay single. For the born again beleiver to remarry (while he has an unconverted spouse that is possibly remarried or not) would be adultry.

If this born again believers (ex-) repents or perhaps repents together with the second relationship, then they together need to recognize that their relationship is sinful and need to repent (separate). The two that originally divorced could come back together but they don't necessarily have to. They may chose just to remain eunuchs (single) for the kingdom of God's sake.

If children are involved...that's very hard! We do live in a broken world. However it would shed light on the children, family, church and others that the Word of God can be taken seriously and literally,  so as to glorify our King Jesus! He is most worthy of our full surrendership. He saved us and is worthy to be glorified. That's why we should follow Him.

Your last question....There is no exception for divorce and remarriage! Only for divorce (separation), that is if one is in an on going and unrepented state  of their "pornia" (greek)?. If the unrepentant repents, (in my opinion-because the Lord hates divorce), they should come back together.

I'm sorry. This probably hurts a lot. It's the Word that says it' not me. I won't continue to pound on this subject. 
Lord be merciful!!


2 Nov 2019 10:50
you're a bit bias and mixed up

yeah - better not keep pounding - yawn

Oscar A
3 Oct 2021 22:06

I was just wondering if you are open on weekends?

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Spiritual and Mental Abuse in ACCN in Australia - Page 1

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